How Important Is Defense? Topic

I've been drafting good defensive teams a lot lately. It hasn't translated to more wins or championships. In fact, often my defense doesn't seem to really shine as much as I would expect it to either. I'll have to draft a team with more modern pitching to go along with my defensive gems and see how that works out.
11/18/2015 9:33 PM
Posted by cwillis802 on 11/18/2015 9:33:00 PM (view original):
I've been drafting good defensive teams a lot lately. It hasn't translated to more wins or championships. In fact, often my defense doesn't seem to really shine as much as I would expect it to either. I'll have to draft a team with more modern pitching to go along with my defensive gems and see how that works out.
The point I was mostly trying to make was to avoid bad defense rather than to spend money on good defense.
11/19/2015 3:04 AM
Posted by cwillis802 on 11/18/2015 9:31:00 PM (view original):
One thing I've also noticed is that you need to check how many errors the player actually made. Not all A fielders are created equal. In fact, some C fielders may have committed less errors in real life than an A fielder. The range factor seems to hold true more than the fielding...because the fielding grade of a player in different eras can greatly differ. For instance a C rated Larry Bowa at SS may have only committed 20 errors in a particular season and he will most likely commit close to the number of errors he made that season where as an A rated George Davis might have committed 55 errors. More than likely the C rated Bowa is the superior fielder who will commit less errors for you.

The fact that the pitcher helps determine what your fielders will do is news to me. It would seem to me the reason would indeed be the number of strikeouts vs balls put into play for causing more errors. I did have Erick Aybar in an OL commit like 35 errors for me when in real life he only made 15. That's more than twice as many. He didn't have twice as many chances. I was using dead ball pitchers. So that seems to indicate that the pitcher may indeed have the affect on their fielders stated above. I don't doubt it.
One of the last updates Sim got — 5 years ago, maybe? — included major changes in fielding. Deadball position players' ratings were adjusted to reflect their skill relative to each season, rather than the overall data base; instead of most deadballers being D or D- glove, they were changed so whoever the best fielders were in a given season, their ratings would reflect that they were the best of the era rather than comparing them with modern players. As part of that change, each team's overall defense became affected by the pitcher's season and overall MLB defense in that season. Pitchers from the early days of no or poor gloves would effectively shift all eight fielders' defensive ratings downward, and modern pitchers shifted their teams' defense upward. A C SS would become a D SS behind Addie Joss and a B SS behind Greg Maddux. (Can't recall for sure whether the change affected Range also). The same defense will commit more errors behind a deadballer and fewer behind a pitcher from the modern era, regardless of strikeout rates.

With that update, 1908 Honus Wagner went from something like D- to C, for one example. In a progressive, post-update with 1908 pitchers, he still fielded like a D-player. In a game behind a 1955 pitcher, he'd have fielded like C, and behind a 2013 pitcher would be more like B. One goal of that change was to offset deadballers' ability to supress HR by increasing errors.
11/19/2015 5:04 AM
Thanks Joskkvt. That's interesting stuff. I figured the reasoning why a player lie your example, Wagner, could be a C instead of a D is because comparatively to the players he played against in 1908 he could be graded a C....although he still in the history of the game is more of a D. Makes sense.

I never knew that about modern pitching. I wonder what the cutoff is to be considered a "modern" pitcher where the pitcher helps the defense? Does anyone know? There were still quite a few errors in the 1930s. 1940??
11/19/2015 9:01 AM
There is no cutoff....the formula they use to determine whether a play results in an error takes into account 4 variables:
-- The defensive player's fielding percentage
-- The league avg fielding percentage at that position from the defensive player's league/season
-- The league avg fielding percentage at that position from the pitcher's league/season
-- The league avg fielding percentage at that position from the hitter's league/season

So "modern" doesn't refer to a specific cutoff season...it just means that using those 4 variables, pitchers from seasons where the fielding percentages were higher will allow fewer errors all else being equal.
11/19/2015 9:28 AM
Posted by cwillis802 on 11/19/2015 9:01:00 AM (view original):
Thanks Joskkvt. That's interesting stuff. I figured the reasoning why a player lie your example, Wagner, could be a C instead of a D is because comparatively to the players he played against in 1908 he could be graded a C....although he still in the history of the game is more of a D. Makes sense.

I never knew that about modern pitching. I wonder what the cutoff is to be considered a "modern" pitcher where the pitcher helps the defense? Does anyone know? There were still quite a few errors in the 1930s. 1940??
Fielding is log5 normalized between 1) the average of the batter and pitcher 2) the fielder.

Here is a calculator you can use
https://www.whatifsports.com/mlb-l/league_averages.asp
11/19/2015 11:45 PM
Posted by contrarian23 on 11/19/2015 9:28:00 AM (view original):
There is no cutoff....the formula they use to determine whether a play results in an error takes into account 4 variables:
-- The defensive player's fielding percentage
-- The league avg fielding percentage at that position from the defensive player's league/season
-- The league avg fielding percentage at that position from the pitcher's league/season
-- The league avg fielding percentage at that position from the hitter's league/season

So "modern" doesn't refer to a specific cutoff season...it just means that using those 4 variables, pitchers from seasons where the fielding percentages were higher will allow fewer errors all else being equal.
I didn't realize the hitter's season mattered also, thanks. Obviously when you're setting up your team, that's an element out of your control. And yes, I was using "modern" for simplicity since fielding tended to improve from the Deadball era through the 70s at least (quality of the field had a big impact in addition to better gloves). It's not a straight line progression, but for those who don't want to dive into season-by-season fielding stats the generalization works well enough.
11/20/2015 12:36 AM
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