Not sure where to look for this answer, but as a relative newbie, does a SP effectiveness/performance change if you put him in a relief role? And the same for the reverse?

A pitcher's designation as SP or RP has no bearing on how they will perform in-game. One thing to keep an eye on, though, is the IP/G stat. For example, if you have 1944 Joe Berry, you might figure you could use him as a spot starter since he has 118 IP. His IP/G, though, is only 2.1. If you want to start him and set his pitchcount at something like 80 pitches, he'll get shelled because he's only used to throwing 2 IP per game (about 25-40 pitches). On the other side of things are guys like 1988 Bob Milacki. He only has 26 IP but, since he was a starter in real life, his IP/G is something like 8.67, meaning that you can start him and let him throw close to, at least, a complete game. Of course, since he only has 26 IP, you can only do this a couple times a season if you choose to use him in this way.

Posted by Lewb on 11/26/2015 11:14:00 AM (view original):
Not sure where to look for this answer, but as a relative newbie, does a SP effectiveness/performance change if you put him in a relief role? And the same for the reverse?

Yes

It's that cut and dry, elbirdo?...

One word from elbirdo regarding pitching is as good as gold. 

Well, yes, I would tend to agree that taking elbirdo's word for it is a good idea...but in this case, I have to disagree:

a.) There is a ton of material in the knowledge base on how pitching works in WIS.  I can find no statement anywhere that indicates that using an SP as an RP results in decreased effectiveness.
b.) Anecdotal evidence would suggest otherwise (many of the most commonly used closers in the SIM are low-IP starters: Milacki, McDowell, Carlos, Adams, Niggeling, Northrop)
c.) Several years ago I sent in a ticket asking about this, as there was some debate in the forums at that time.  Admin directly stated there was no adjustment made.  Unfortunately I can no longer find that ticket, and I don't know if that was before or after the last update.

So until someone can point me to a definitive source statement that indicates there is an adjustment, I am going to continue to assume that there is no adjustment to performance from using an SP in relief.  (I also assume there is no adjustment to using an RP as an SP, but that would in most be cases be dumb as the fatigue would set in so quickly as to render it a poor strategy.)

Was elbirdo answering both questions?  Or just the "And the same for the reverse?" question, which would mean RP being used as an SP, and the associated in-game fatigue quickly taking its toll?

If it was only the second part of the question, then of course that is true, using an RP as a SP will not work because of IP/G and in-game fatigue.

Yes, Yes

elbirdo, can you provide a source for your assertions?  I am sure you have a reason for believing this; I would just love for this information to be widely understood so that we can discuss it.  My best guess, looking at the performance of SPs used in relief in the SIM (Milacki et al) is the effect, if any, is so minor as to be negligible in most cases.  But I am happen to be proven wrong.

I have just submitted a support ticket asking admin for clarification; I will report back once I receive a reply.

In his interview elbirdo speaks about starters used in relief...towards the end of the interview


https://www.whatifsports.com/beyondtheboxscore/default.asp?article=interview_20120517

The interview makes it sound like he acknowledges there is no difference, but would rather there be one.

WIS: What is one feature you want to see implemented in a future update? 

elbirdo: I've got two - do I get extra credit?

1. I would like to have a checkbox in advanced pitcher settings for "spot starter." In the event all of my starters are below rest setting, use this guy to start a game.

2. Some kind of algorithm adjustment for starters used in relief. I know a '95 Maddux can make 35 starts of 100 pitches each. I think the same Maddux making 81 relief appearances of 40 pitches each is unrealistic.

Posted by ozomatli on 11/26/2015 11:29:00 AM (view original):
A pitcher's designation as SP or RP has no bearing on how they will perform in-game. One thing to keep an eye on, though, is the IP/G stat. For example, if you have 1944 Joe Berry, you might figure you could use him as a spot starter since he has 118 IP. His IP/G, though, is only 2.1. If you want to start him and set his pitchcount at something like 80 pitches, he'll get shelled because he's only used to throwing 2 IP per game (about 25-40 pitches). On the other side of things are guys like 1988 Bob Milacki. He only has 26 IP but, since he was a starter in real life, his IP/G is something like 8.67, meaning that you can start him and let him throw close to, at least, a complete game. Of course, since he only has 26 IP, you can only do this a couple times a season if you choose to use him in this way.

I would have to disagree with this to some extent. In the first TOC that I was ever lucky enough to get into someone started '67 Dave Baldwin against my team. I believe his IP/9 is 1.18. He threw a complete game shutout and never tired or got shellacked like you state would happen. Maybe it was just a blip in the WIS algorithm but at the time it ****** me off totally.

I think he is saying that the 95 Maddox used as a reliever over 81 games at 40 pitches per game there would be performance issues...making it unrealistic. That makes his previous "yes" to the question make sense. A starter's performance would suffer as a reliever...whether that is true or not I am in no position to say, just that it semi clears up some confusion about what he may have meant by merely answering "yes" without any further explanation. Maybe it's best to just wait for his response about this in this thread.

OK - here goes - I figured this out a long time ago and I just went back and verified it.   One of the cool things about playing live is that you can see the running pitch count and fatigue values for your pitcher after every batter.   Pick you favorite pitcher (in this example I used 2000 Martinez).  I started him and watched his pitch count and fatigue.  After 30 pitches he was still at 98%.  After 40 - 96%.  After 70 - 91%.  He made it to 105 pitches and was still above 80%.  Then his fatigue increases more rapidly until getting to 0% after 160 pitches.   

Now - play the same game again but start someone else.  Let him face a batter, then bring Martinez in as a reliever.  The curve is much steeper.  40 pitches = 92%.  70 pitches = 64%.  90 pitches = 11%.  Hits 0% at about 95 pitches.  That's a fatigue rate almost double of what he had as a starter.

Thought about keeping this to myself, but what the heck....Merry Christmas.

This is obviously very interesting, and I appreciate you sharing it.

Probably picking nits here, but I think it would be more accurate to say "SPs used as RPs will fatigue faster" rather than "SPs used as RPs are less effective."

In other words, in the example you have given, Pedro at 100% as an RP is just as effective as Pedro at 100% as an SP.  He just stays at 100% for fewer pitches if used as an RP.

To that end, I'll stand by my earlier contention that in most cases the effect here is small enough as to be negligible.  In most cases, if I'm using an SP as an RP, his pitch counts will be set much lower anyway, so this acceleration of fatigue wouldn't matter much.  For the low-IP starters I listed earlier (Milacki, Carlos, Adams, McDowell, etc), I would typically set them to 15/20 or 15/25.  It looks like there would be no meaningful fatigue effects at those pitch counts.