Unless, of course, you want to invalidate some things.    Ruth now has 617 homers, Bonds has 483, ARod('roid rumors as far back as HS) has 197, Ty Cobb hit .301, Walter Johnson has 379 wins, etc, etc due to circumstances that have to be removed.

That's a perfectly reasonable perspective, but given that Musial's war-year dominance was also during the segregation period, that argument doesn't really help Musial out...  Pre-1998 Bonds still has a better career OPS+ than Musial, even without removing the war years.  So I'm not really worried about PEDs to rank him ahead of Musial.

To think about this in a different way... Musial had the best career of these 3 guys because of longevity if for no other reason.  But realistically, in a peak-performance GOAT discussion, does he really come in ahead of Ralph Kiner or Hank Greenberg?

Well, peak-performance is YOUR argument for GOAT. 

I'm not taking Musial over Bonds or Williams either.   I don't think I can put him top three at 1B or RF on top of that.   I'm just saying he was very good for a very long time.  Kind of like Aaron who gets dismissed in GOAT discussions because he played so long.    The fact that Musial could play 3 positions would put him on my 25 man roster if I was building a "team". 

Posted by dahsdebater on 1/20/2016 12:39:00 PM (view original):
That's a perfectly reasonable perspective, but given that Musial's war-year dominance was also during the segregation period, that argument doesn't really help Musial out...  Pre-1998 Bonds still has a better career OPS+ than Musial, even without removing the war years.  So I'm not really worried about PEDs to rank him ahead of Musial.

To think about this in a different way... Musial had the best career of these 3 guys because of longevity if for no other reason.  But realistically, in a peak-performance GOAT discussion, does he really come in ahead of Ralph Kiner or Hank Greenberg?

Also, Bonds used PEDs, but so did a significant amount of the rest of the league. It's not like he was the only one. He was juiced, dominating against guys who were also juiced.

Not exactly analogous to Musial playing against replacement players.

How about a Top 10 at each position.
Mine would be:
Catcher: 1. Johnny Bench   2. Ivan Rodriguez   3. Mike Piazza   4. Gary Carter   5. Bill Dickey   6. Yogi Berra   7. Carlton Fisk   8. Mickey Cochrane   9. Ted Simmons   10. Joe Mauer

First Base: 1. Lou Gehrig   2. Albert Pujols   3. Jimmie Foxx   4. Miguel Cabrera   5. Jeff Bagwell   6. Frank Thomas   7. Cap Anson   8. Dan Brouthers   9. Johnny Mize   10. Jim Thome

Second Base: 1. Rogers Hornsby   2. Eddie Collins   3. Joe Morgan   4. Nap Lajoie   5. Charlie Gehringer   7. Rod Carew   8. Jackie Robinson   9. Ryne Sandberg   10. Roberto Alomar

Third Base: 1. Mike Schmidt   2. Wade Boggs   3. George Brett   4. Chipper Jones   5. Eddie Mathews   6. Adrian Beltre   7. Ron Santo   8. Brooks Robinson   9. Scott Rolen   10. Paul Moliter

Shortstop: 1. Honus Wagner   2. Alex Rodriguez   3. Arky Vaughan   4. Cal Ripken   5. Ernie Banks   6. Robin Yount   7. Luke Appling   8. Alan Trammell   9. Derek Jeter   10. Ozzie Smith

Left Field: 1. Barry Bonds   2. Ted Williams   3. Rickey Henderson   4. Carl Yastrzemski   5. Pete Rose   6. Ed Delahanty   7. Tim Raines   8. Manny Ramirez   9. Al Simmons   10. Goose Goslin

Center Field: 1. Willie Mays   2. Ty Cobb   3. Mickey Mantle   4. Tris Speaker   5. Ken Griffey Jr.   6. Joe DiMaggio   7. Duke Snider   8. Richie Ashburn  9. Kenny Lofton   10. Mike Trout

Right Field: 1. Babe Ruth   2. Hank Aaron   3. Stan Musial   4. Shoeless Joe Jackson   5. Al Kaline   6. Mel Ott   7. Frank Robinson   8. Roberto Clemente   9. Harry Heilman   10. Reggie Jackson

Starting Pitcher: 1. Walter Johnson   2. Pedro Martinez   3. Roger Clemens   4. Greg Maddux   5. Randy Johnson   6. Christy Mathewson   7. Cy Young   8. Lefty Grove   9.  Steve Carlton   10. Tom Seaver

Relief Pitcher: 1. Mariano Rivera   2. Hoyt Wilhelm   3. Rich Gossage   4. Dennis Eckersley   5. Trevor Hoffman   6. Bruce Sutter   7. Lee Smith   8. Billy Wagner   9. Rollie Fingers   10. Joe Nathan

DH: 1. Edgar Martinez   2. David Ortiz   3. Hal McRae   4. Harold Baines   5. Chili Davis   6. Eddie Murray   7. Jason Giambi   8. Don Baylor   9. Victor Martinez   10. Travis Hafner   (Only 17 players have made 648 appearances at DH (4 seasons) so this is a really weak Top 10. I also have some of them listed elsewhere)

C: 1. Bench 2. Dickey 3. Cochrane 4. King Kelly 5. Yogi Berra 6. Pudge Rodriguez 7. Pudge Fisk 8. Piazza 9. Yadier Molina 10. Gary Carter
1B: 1. Gehrig 2. Foxx 3. Pujols 4. Cap Anson 5. Dan Brouthers 6. Hank Greenberg 7. Frank Thomas 8. McCovey 9. Cabrera 10. Palmeiro
2B: 1. Hornsby 2. Morgan 3. Lajoie 4. Alomar 5. Collins 6. Robinson 7. Cano 8. Carew 9. Gehringer 10. Biggio
SS: 1. A-Rod 2. Wagner 3. Vaughan 4. Appling 5. Jeter 6. Ripken 7. Larkin 8. Dahlen 9. Trammel 10. Ozzie
3B: 1. Schmidt 2. Chipper 3. Brett 4. Mathews 5. Boggs 6. Brooks 7. Killebrew 8. Beltre 9. Baker 10. Rolen
LF: 1. Williams 2. Bonds 3. Yaz 4. Musial 5. Al Simmons 6. Rickey 7. Kiner 8. Manny 9. Raines 10. Delahanty Deep apologies to Ducky Medwick.
CF: 1. Mantle 2. Cobb 3. Mays 4. Speaker 5. DiMaggio 6. Griffey 7. Snider 8. Edmonds 9. Beltran 10. Ashburn
RF: 1. Ruth 2. Robinson 3. Aaron 4. Joe Jackson 5. Ott 6. Reggie Jackson 7. Gwynn 8. Paul Waner 9. Clemente 10. Abreu
SP: 1. Pedro 2. Walter Johnson 3. Grove 4. Koufax 5. Clemens 6. Alexander 7. Seaver 8. Walsh 9. Maddux 10. Spahn
RP: 1. Rivera 2. Billy Wagner 3. Eckersley 4. Gossage 5. K-Rod 6. Fingers 7. Hoffman 8. Lee Smith 9. John Franco 10. Nathan

I probably forgot some guys, particularly in the RP category.  Maybe I should have found some room in there for Firpo Marberry.

What was really surprising to me was how much better LF has been, historically, than RF.  I thought they'd be more balanced.  Ruth helps the RF cause, but it drops off a LOT faster.  There are guys I left off the LF list that would have been around the middle of the RF list.

You gotta put Lofton in there at CF.

Posted by bad_luck on 1/20/2016 6:10:00 PM (view original):
You gotta put Lofton in there at CF.

Especially over Beltran

Forgot about Gwynn but it's interesting that he put Bobby Abreu. Right Field is definitely the most stacked position. But I'm not against it.

I have a real soft spot for Bobby Abreu.  I really liked his arm in RF, and most people loved his bat.  He was a better hitter than a lot of people seem to remember.  His 7-year batting line from 1998-2004 was .308/.416/.525.  He also stole over 200 bases over that span.  He didn't have elite power by any stretch of the imagination, not for a steroid-era COF playing home games in Philly, but in his prime he was good at everything.

I don't see RF as the most stacked position.  LF is much stronger, and 1B is stronger, too.

Posted by dahsdebater on 1/20/2016 10:22:00 PM (view original):
I have a real soft spot for Bobby Abreu.  I really liked his arm in RF, and most people loved his bat.  He was a better hitter than a lot of people seem to remember.  His 7-year batting line from 1998-2004 was .308/.416/.525.  He also stole over 200 bases over that span.  He didn't have elite power by any stretch of the imagination, not for a steroid-era COF playing home games in Philly, but in his prime he was good at everything.

I don't see RF as the most stacked position.  LF is much stronger, and 1B is stronger, too.

I guess it's just the stats I prefer. Towards 10-11-12, 1st base becomes surprisingly weak in my opinion. But Bobby is definitely one of my favorites in WIS.

My #10 first baseman played gold glove caliber defense and had 3000 hits and 500 HRs.  I don't see that as weak.

Shouldn't set up guy have a top 10?

What about lefty specialist?