It's the worst statistic in all of sports because it has forced managers to change the way they manage their bullpens, for the sole purpose of getting saves for their closers.  Sometimes to the detriment of their own team's success.

Replace it with something new.  Jayson Stark's proposal in this article might be a good starting point.

Discuss.

If you want to start a revolution, get rid of Wins for pitchers too.

How many times have you seen a guy labor thru the 5th inning in a 9-4 game so he can be eligible for the win?   Or a pitcher hit for himself in a 3-3 game when everyone knows it would have been better to PH and then bring in the bullpen? 

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/20/2016 1:31:00 PM (view original):
If you want to start a revolution, get rid of Wins for pitchers too.

How many times have you seen a guy labor thru the 5th inning in a 9-4 game so he can be eligible for the win?   Or a pitcher hit for himself in a 3-3 game when everyone knows it would have been better to PH and then bring in the bullpen? 

We're talking about fixing the save right now.

FOCUS!!!

I've argued long and hard that the way managers use their bullpen is stupid.    And it's not the manager's fault.   It's agents/GMs.  

"My guy had 38 saves."
"OMG!!!!  Will 10m a year work?"

"My guy had 78 innings of work with a .98 WHIP."
"OK.  How many saves?"
"3 but the manager didn't use him that way."
"Sounds like a set-up guy.  2m per year."

 

IOW, I don't need Stark's convoluted relief points.   Tell me how many innings, WHIP, OAV and K/9.    I'll tell you his value.    Now, if you can get agents/GMs to do the same, we're well on our way to changing how RP are used.

Posted by tecwrg on 1/20/2016 1:22:00 PM (view original):
It's the worst statistic in all of sports because it has forced managers to change the way they manage their bullpens, for the sole purpose of getting saves for their closers.  Sometimes to the detriment of their own team's success.

Replace it with something new.  Jayson Stark's proposal in this article might be a good starting point.

Discuss.

We agree? Cool. Saves are meaningless.

Posted by bad_luck on 1/20/2016 1:51:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 1/20/2016 1:22:00 PM (view original):
It's the worst statistic in all of sports because it has forced managers to change the way they manage their bullpens, for the sole purpose of getting saves for their closers.  Sometimes to the detriment of their own team's success.

Replace it with something new.  Jayson Stark's proposal in this article might be a good starting point.

Discuss.

We agree? Cool. Saves are meaningless.

Get a room, you two.

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/20/2016 1:47:00 PM (view original):
IOW, I don't need Stark's convoluted relief points.   Tell me how many innings, WHIP, OAV and K/9.    I'll tell you his value.    Now, if you can get agents/GMs to do the same, we're well on our way to changing how RP are used.

WHIP, OAV and K/9 are nice, but they don't give any value about context.

RP1 comes in to a bases-empty, no out situation with a 3 run lead in the 8th.  He gets two K's and a popup.

RP2 comes in with runners on 2nd and 3rd, no outs, and a 1 run lead in the 8th.  He also gets two K's and a popup.

RP2 should get a little more credit because he pitched in a much higher leverage situation.

How do you achieve that?

Posted by tecwrg on 1/20/2016 1:55:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/20/2016 1:47:00 PM (view original):
IOW, I don't need Stark's convoluted relief points.   Tell me how many innings, WHIP, OAV and K/9.    I'll tell you his value.    Now, if you can get agents/GMs to do the same, we're well on our way to changing how RP are used.

WHIP, OAV and K/9 are nice, but they don't give any value about context.

RP1 comes in to a bases-empty, no out situation with a 3 run lead in the 8th.  He gets two K's and a popup.

RP2 comes in with runners on 2nd and 3rd, no outs, and a 1 run lead in the 8th.  He also gets two K's and a popup.

RP2 should get a little more credit because he pitched in a much higher leverage situation.

How do you achieve that?

You watch the game with the understanding that VIEWING AN EVENT is superior to reading someone else's account of the event or worse yet, reading the statistics about the event.

Then you have a beer. 

Leverage index.

Posted by toddcommish on 1/20/2016 1:58:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 1/20/2016 1:55:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/20/2016 1:47:00 PM (view original):
IOW, I don't need Stark's convoluted relief points.   Tell me how many innings, WHIP, OAV and K/9.    I'll tell you his value.    Now, if you can get agents/GMs to do the same, we're well on our way to changing how RP are used.

WHIP, OAV and K/9 are nice, but they don't give any value about context.

RP1 comes in to a bases-empty, no out situation with a 3 run lead in the 8th.  He gets two K's and a popup.

RP2 comes in with runners on 2nd and 3rd, no outs, and a 1 run lead in the 8th.  He also gets two K's and a popup.

RP2 should get a little more credit because he pitched in a much higher leverage situation.

How do you achieve that?

You watch the game with the understanding that VIEWING AN EVENT is superior to reading someone else's account of the event or worse yet, reading the statistics about the event.

Then you have a beer. 

Pretty much what 'tardcomm just said.    Unless, of course, you're saying the manager doesn't view RP1 and RP2 as having the same skill set wrt "clutch".    But now you're arguing for saves.

I'm arguing for getting managers to stop managing towards saves, and instead using their best pitchers in the highest leverage situations.