Posted by sjpoker on 6/30/2016 4:45:00 AM (view original):
Ok, Mike he didn't break big records. But he did compile stats most people are certain he wouldn't have if he didn't roid. The return is obvious in in everyones faces.

For Pudge I do not think that is the case. He didn't have any eye popping numbers at bat, although they were pretty good for a catcher.

I don't agree it's obvious - or at least it wasn't during his career. I'm an O's fan, and even I had to do a double take towards the end of Palmeiro's career. "He has WHAT career numbers??"

The guy was rarely considered a Top 5 player in any of his seasons (his best MVP voting finish was 5th). He was consistently very good, but his greatness wasn't completely obvious during his career. His numbers season to season weren't necessarily eye-popping - like Pudge, he was just consistently really good every year.

And Pudge was also a catcher. Their offensive standards are not the same as other positions due to the physical demand.

Posted by Got_Worms on 6/30/2016 9:19:00 AM (view original):

Posted by sjpoker on 6/30/2016 8:26:00 AM (view original):
What I am trying to say is that IRod will get a pass because he has no clear benefit from supposed PED usage. The others do.

Scan the break big records statement.

Nobody is getting a pass when it comes to PED use. There is no reason it should've taken four tries for Piazza to get elected to the HOF!!

Ask Jeff Bagwell how steroid rumors unfairly keep worthy players out of the HOF.

I get it. But those are big, bulky HR hitters. I don't think the electorate would be as harsh with IRod.

Because everyone busted for PEDs has been a bulky HR hitter...oh wait...

Posted by Jtpsops on 6/30/2016 9:33:00 AM (view original):

Posted by sjpoker on 6/30/2016 4:45:00 AM (view original):
Ok, Mike he didn't break big records. But he did compile stats most people are certain he wouldn't have if he didn't roid. The return is obvious in in everyones faces.

For Pudge I do not think that is the case. He didn't have any eye popping numbers at bat, although they were pretty good for a catcher.

I don't agree it's obvious - or at least it wasn't during his career. I'm an O's fan, and even I had to do a double take towards the end of Palmeiro's career. "He has WHAT career numbers??"

The guy was rarely considered a Top 5 player in any of his seasons (his best MVP voting finish was 5th). He was consistently very good, but his greatness wasn't completely obvious during his career. His numbers season to season weren't necessarily eye-popping - like Pudge, he was just consistently really good every year.

And Pudge was also a catcher. Their offensive standards are not the same as other positions due to the physical demand.

I'm old enough to remember when Palmeiro came up. There was a LOT of talk about how he didn't have the bat for 1B. He was a solid, contact hitter, but most baseball guys felt he didn't drive the ball. By 91 he was starting to hit it out. a year or so after that, I think hit just about 40 HRs a year after.

Now I ain't saying he did or he didn't. I don't think I'd lump him with guys like Ron Gant, Lenny Dykstra, and Ken 'beanpole' Caminiti - who are guys that I remember thinking "Wow they got big." But people notice the numbers, assume he did the PED thing, and would have never approached what he ended up without them.

IRod doesn't seem to have the same chatter that I am aware of. The only think I know about him and PEDs is that Canseco pointed him out.

Posted by bad_luck on 6/30/2016 12:46:00 PM (view original):
Because everyone busted for PEDs has been a bulky HR hitter...oh wait...

Dumbass. I wasn't saying that. I am saying that the guys who were in fact bulky and threw up the big HR numbers are going to be the ones who voters take it out on.

Posted by sjpoker on 6/30/2016 12:58:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Jtpsops on 6/30/2016 9:33:00 AM (view original):

Posted by sjpoker on 6/30/2016 4:45:00 AM (view original):
Ok, Mike he didn't break big records. But he did compile stats most people are certain he wouldn't have if he didn't roid. The return is obvious in in everyones faces.

For Pudge I do not think that is the case. He didn't have any eye popping numbers at bat, although they were pretty good for a catcher.

I don't agree it's obvious - or at least it wasn't during his career. I'm an O's fan, and even I had to do a double take towards the end of Palmeiro's career. "He has WHAT career numbers??"

The guy was rarely considered a Top 5 player in any of his seasons (his best MVP voting finish was 5th). He was consistently very good, but his greatness wasn't completely obvious during his career. His numbers season to season weren't necessarily eye-popping - like Pudge, he was just consistently really good every year.

And Pudge was also a catcher. Their offensive standards are not the same as other positions due to the physical demand.

I'm old enough to remember when Palmeiro came up. There was a LOT of talk about how he didn't have the bat for 1B. He was a solid, contact hitter, but most baseball guys felt he didn't drive the ball. By 91 he was starting to hit it out. a year or so after that, I think hit just about 40 HRs a year after.

Now I ain't saying he did or he didn't. I don't think I'd lump him with guys like Ron Gant, Lenny Dykstra, and Ken 'beanpole' Caminiti - who are guys that I remember thinking "Wow they got big." But people notice the numbers, assume he did the PED thing, and would have never approached what he ended up without them.

IRod doesn't seem to have the same chatter that I am aware of. The only think I know about him and PEDs is that Canseco pointed him out.

I'm not necessarily talking about PEDs. I'm talking about Palmeiro's greatness. He had HOF numbers, but never in his career was he considered among the best hitters in the game. Like Pudge, he was just really consistently good.

And I think Palmeiro is easily in the hall without his positive test.

Posted by sjpoker on 6/30/2016 12:59:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 6/30/2016 12:46:00 PM (view original):
Because everyone busted for PEDs has been a bulky HR hitter...oh wait...

Dumbass. I wasn't saying that. I am saying that the guys who were in fact bulky and threw up the big HR numbers are going to be the ones who voters take it out on.

I was making a point about the stupidity of voters. Not attacking you.

Posted by MikeT23 on 6/29/2016 4:43:00 PM (view original):
OK, short attention span, who the **** is this thread about?

its about bad_luck...every thread is about bad_luck, isn't it?

Posted by Jtpsops on 6/30/2016 1:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by sjpoker on 6/30/2016 12:58:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Jtpsops on 6/30/2016 9:33:00 AM (view original):

Posted by sjpoker on 6/30/2016 4:45:00 AM (view original):
Ok, Mike he didn't break big records. But he did compile stats most people are certain he wouldn't have if he didn't roid. The return is obvious in in everyones faces.

For Pudge I do not think that is the case. He didn't have any eye popping numbers at bat, although they were pretty good for a catcher.

I don't agree it's obvious - or at least it wasn't during his career. I'm an O's fan, and even I had to do a double take towards the end of Palmeiro's career. "He has WHAT career numbers??"

The guy was rarely considered a Top 5 player in any of his seasons (his best MVP voting finish was 5th). He was consistently very good, but his greatness wasn't completely obvious during his career. His numbers season to season weren't necessarily eye-popping - like Pudge, he was just consistently really good every year.

And Pudge was also a catcher. Their offensive standards are not the same as other positions due to the physical demand.

I'm old enough to remember when Palmeiro came up. There was a LOT of talk about how he didn't have the bat for 1B. He was a solid, contact hitter, but most baseball guys felt he didn't drive the ball. By 91 he was starting to hit it out. a year or so after that, I think hit just about 40 HRs a year after.

Now I ain't saying he did or he didn't. I don't think I'd lump him with guys like Ron Gant, Lenny Dykstra, and Ken 'beanpole' Caminiti - who are guys that I remember thinking "Wow they got big." But people notice the numbers, assume he did the PED thing, and would have never approached what he ended up without them.

IRod doesn't seem to have the same chatter that I am aware of. The only think I know about him and PEDs is that Canseco pointed him out.

I'm not necessarily talking about PEDs. I'm talking about Palmeiro's greatness. He had HOF numbers, but never in his career was he considered among the best hitters in the game. Like Pudge, he was just really consistently good.

And I think Palmeiro is easily in the hall without his positive test.

Oh I agree. I think he was set up to be the guy who's "grit pushed him to become a star."

Then he went to Capital Hill and pointed fingers.

Then he tested positive. My god what an epic fuckup.

Posted by sjpoker on 6/30/2016 12:59:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 6/30/2016 12:46:00 PM (view original):
Because everyone busted for PEDs has been a bulky HR hitter...oh wait...

Dumbass. I wasn't saying that. I am saying that the guys who were in fact bulky and threw up the big HR numbers are going to be the ones who voters take it out on.

...and Roger Clemens!

Posted by Got_Worms on 6/30/2016 1:32:00 PM (view original):

Posted by sjpoker on 6/30/2016 12:59:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 6/30/2016 12:46:00 PM (view original):
Because everyone busted for PEDs has been a bulky HR hitter...oh wait...

Dumbass. I wasn't saying that. I am saying that the guys who were in fact bulky and threw up the big HR numbers are going to be the ones who voters take it out on.

...and Roger Clemens!

Well Roger Clemens will probably take the hit for all the dumbassery over and above the bulkiness.

Posted by Jtpsops on 6/30/2016 1:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by sjpoker on 6/30/2016 12:58:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Jtpsops on 6/30/2016 9:33:00 AM (view original):

Posted by sjpoker on 6/30/2016 4:45:00 AM (view original):
Ok, Mike he didn't break big records. But he did compile stats most people are certain he wouldn't have if he didn't roid. The return is obvious in in everyones faces.

For Pudge I do not think that is the case. He didn't have any eye popping numbers at bat, although they were pretty good for a catcher.

I don't agree it's obvious - or at least it wasn't during his career. I'm an O's fan, and even I had to do a double take towards the end of Palmeiro's career. "He has WHAT career numbers??"

The guy was rarely considered a Top 5 player in any of his seasons (his best MVP voting finish was 5th). He was consistently very good, but his greatness wasn't completely obvious during his career. His numbers season to season weren't necessarily eye-popping - like Pudge, he was just consistently really good every year.

And Pudge was also a catcher. Their offensive standards are not the same as other positions due to the physical demand.

I'm old enough to remember when Palmeiro came up. There was a LOT of talk about how he didn't have the bat for 1B. He was a solid, contact hitter, but most baseball guys felt he didn't drive the ball. By 91 he was starting to hit it out. a year or so after that, I think hit just about 40 HRs a year after.

Now I ain't saying he did or he didn't. I don't think I'd lump him with guys like Ron Gant, Lenny Dykstra, and Ken 'beanpole' Caminiti - who are guys that I remember thinking "Wow they got big." But people notice the numbers, assume he did the PED thing, and would have never approached what he ended up without them.

IRod doesn't seem to have the same chatter that I am aware of. The only think I know about him and PEDs is that Canseco pointed him out.

I'm not necessarily talking about PEDs. I'm talking about Palmeiro's greatness. He had HOF numbers, but never in his career was he considered among the best hitters in the game. Like Pudge, he was just really consistently good.

And I think Palmeiro is easily in the hall without his positive test.

Palmeiro does not belong in the hall with or without PEDs

Palmeiro - if we knew he never did steroids - doesn't belong in the Hall? Not sure how you come to that conclusion.

Posted by Jtpsops on 6/30/2016 1:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by sjpoker on 6/30/2016 12:58:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Jtpsops on 6/30/2016 9:33:00 AM (view original):

Posted by sjpoker on 6/30/2016 4:45:00 AM (view original):
Ok, Mike he didn't break big records. But he did compile stats most people are certain he wouldn't have if he didn't roid. The return is obvious in in everyones faces.

For Pudge I do not think that is the case. He didn't have any eye popping numbers at bat, although they were pretty good for a catcher.

I don't agree it's obvious - or at least it wasn't during his career. I'm an O's fan, and even I had to do a double take towards the end of Palmeiro's career. "He has WHAT career numbers??"

The guy was rarely considered a Top 5 player in any of his seasons (his best MVP voting finish was 5th). He was consistently very good, but his greatness wasn't completely obvious during his career. His numbers season to season weren't necessarily eye-popping - like Pudge, he was just consistently really good every year.

And Pudge was also a catcher. Their offensive standards are not the same as other positions due to the physical demand.

I'm old enough to remember when Palmeiro came up. There was a LOT of talk about how he didn't have the bat for 1B. He was a solid, contact hitter, but most baseball guys felt he didn't drive the ball. By 91 he was starting to hit it out. a year or so after that, I think hit just about 40 HRs a year after.

Now I ain't saying he did or he didn't. I don't think I'd lump him with guys like Ron Gant, Lenny Dykstra, and Ken 'beanpole' Caminiti - who are guys that I remember thinking "Wow they got big." But people notice the numbers, assume he did the PED thing, and would have never approached what he ended up without them.

IRod doesn't seem to have the same chatter that I am aware of. The only think I know about him and PEDs is that Canseco pointed him out.

I'm not necessarily talking about PEDs. I'm talking about Palmeiro's greatness. He had HOF numbers, but never in his career was he considered among the best hitters in the game. Like Pudge, he was just really consistently good.

And I think Palmeiro is easily in the hall without his positive test.

Because of the milestone numbers he probably would be in, but even if he keeps the 500 HRs, without the 3000 hits, I don't know. They like to see high MVP finished for 1B and COF types. The only things he ever led a league in were hits, doubles, and runs, each once. That's not a lot of black ink. Not only did he never finish better than 5th in an MVP race, he never really deserved to. Was never one of the best hitters in the league.

I think that matters a whole lot less for catchers. The standards are so much lower. Just being able to play for a long time and be a defensive stud is enough, historically. The fact that Pudge was an above-average bat is just gravy. And the MVP was a cherry on top.

This does beg the question of what we're eating with gravy and cherries. Hopefully a meat pie of some sort. They used to put cherries in the wild game pie at King's Arms and it was delicious.

Clemens has gotten ****** harder by the HOF voters than anyone in history. "We" have screamed "If you didn't do it, take it to court!!!!" He did and he won over some date rate drug hanger-on. Did that help Clemens? Nope. "We" just said "Well, I know he took PED. The court ****** it up."