All PED induction Topic

Posted by Jtpsops on 7/27/2016 1:22:00 PM (view original):
If you want to argue 500 shouldn't be a benchmark, that's fine, but everyone who hit that mark is in (except Bonds and Palmeiro. Thome will be in when he's eligible).

Not to mention, I would argue that McGwire redefined power in a way that maybe only Ruth has surpassed. His homers were "bigger than the game" for a few years.
Sosa. Sheffield.
7/27/2016 1:23 PM
McGwire was hitting bombs before Sosa started. And neither Sosa or Sheffield were synonymous with moonshots like McGwire was.
7/27/2016 1:26 PM
Posted by Jtpsops on 7/27/2016 1:22:00 PM (view original):
If you want to argue 500 shouldn't be a benchmark, that's fine, but everyone who hit that mark is in (except Bonds and Palmeiro. Thome will be in when he's eligible).

Not to mention, I would argue that McGwire redefined power in a way that maybe only Ruth has surpassed. His homers were "bigger than the game" for a few years.
All I'm saying is the benchmark was 400. Then an unpopular player hit 400 and the benchmark moved.
7/27/2016 1:26 PM
Just pointing out that 500 really isn't special. No one thinks McGriff is a hall of Famer and he has 493. That isn't meaningfully different than 500.
7/27/2016 1:28 PM
But I agree that McGwire should be in.
7/27/2016 1:28 PM
But I also think Bonds and Clemens should be in so...
7/27/2016 1:29 PM
¯\_("_")_/¯
7/27/2016 1:31 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 7/27/2016 1:28:00 PM (view original):
Just pointing out that 500 really isn't special. No one thinks McGriff is a hall of Famer and he has 493. That isn't meaningfully different than 500.
I wouldn't say no one does. There's a crowd that thinks he's worthy. By the standards of 1980s offense, he was pretty good.
7/27/2016 1:46 PM
He was very good for a long time, but that does not make him hall of fame worthy.
7/27/2016 2:15 PM
Posted by Jtpsops on 7/27/2016 1:22:00 PM (view original):
If you want to argue 500 shouldn't be a benchmark, that's fine, but everyone who hit that mark is in (except Bonds and Palmeiro. Thome will be in when he's eligible).

Not to mention, I would argue that McGwire redefined power in a way that maybe only Ruth has surpassed. His homers were "bigger than the game" for a few years.
I'm not sure Thome will get in. The fact that he was well-liked might get him in near the end of his eligibility. I wouldn't rule it out. But given that his career largely overlapped with McGwire, Bagwell, Palmeiro, Frank Thomas, Jason Giambi, Edgar Martinez, Todd Helton, and Pujols, does he Thome really "feel" good enough to reach the bar for his era? Personally, I'd put Mac, Thomas, and Edgar in as "steroid era" 1B/DH types and Pujols as more of a post-steroid era guy and leave it at that (although if we're gonna talk about post-steroid era, you'd have to assume that Miggy's on his way to the Hall as well). If you wanted one more guy it would be Bagwell or Palmeiro. At another time, Giambi or Thome's numbers would certainly be good enough. But either one of them was basically about the 6th-best 1B/DH in baseball at his peak. I don't see how that's good enough. Heck, for about 2 years Giambi had a pretty strong argument as the best 1B in baseball. But it's 2 years. Outside of that too many guys were better than he was. Thome's best MVP finish was 4th in 2003, and two of the guys who finished below him (Javy Lopez and Helton) probably hit better in retrospect.

In an era in which guys like Gary Sheffield and Lance Berkman won't even merit serious consideration - and seriously, look how good those guys' numbers are if you don't already know - I don't see guys like Thome and Sosa deserving to get in. There were just too many people who were better.
7/27/2016 2:24 PM
Rather than fighting about who did or didn't use, what constitutes the burden of proof for such, and what does or doesn't count as a performance enhancing drug, I think it would be much more edifying to discuss who we think should (not will) go into the HOF for performance during the "Steroid Era" - early '90s-2006. So I'm putting my list here. For the purposes of this list I'm not including guys like Ripken and Boggs, who had their best years in the '80s even though they played well into the '90s. Ripken's last MVP was in '91 and he went downhill pretty fast after that. Boggs kept hitting for average throughout the '90s but without the walks and XBH he had in the '80s. And Gwynn probably hit about as well in the '90s as he had in the '80s, but he was more of a pre-steroid style of hitter, so I'm not including him either. That doesn't mean I don't think those guys deserve to be in, and it doesn't mean I don't think any of them used PEDs. I just don't consider them to be primarily Steroid Era bats. Similarly, Pujols was great for the last 6 years of the Steroid Era, but he won 2 of his 3 MVPs after 2006 and is still a solid contributor, so I consider him more of a post-steroid guy. So here's my list, by position:

DH: Frank Thomas, Edgar Martinez
1B: Mark McGwire
2B: Craig Biggio, Jeff Kent, Roberto Alomar
SS: Derek Jeter, Alex Rodriguez
3B: Chipper Jones
OF: Barry Bonds, Manny Ramirez, Ken Griffey Jr.
SP: Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson, Greg Maddux, Pedro Martinez, John Smoltz
RP: Mariano Rivera, Trevor Hoffman, Billy Wagner

There were a few guys I struggle to leave off, but that's about the right number of HOFers for a decade and a half based on the average rate of producing HOF players throughout the history of the sport. Barry Larkin certainly had an argument. Scott Rolen has a sneaky argument. I've gone back and forth a bit on Bagwell over the past few years. Larry Walker or Vlad Guerrero could certainly build a strong case (and obviously Sosa as a 600-HR guy). But based on the guys I already said I'm leaving off, realistically, I'm only representing about 10-12 years worth of baseball history here. At best. Maybe less, because most of these guys saw their careers start between the mid-'80s and early-'90s. 20 guys for a decade is already high relative to the standard number enshrined for any given period. If I had to take one guy back off it would definitely be Smoltz.
7/27/2016 2:46 PM
Posted by toddcommish on 7/27/2016 12:38:00 PM (view original):
I have no problem with a wing in the HOF for guys that met certain career/season standards. But they shouldn't be part of the REAL part where the greatest ballplayers are celebrated (Mays, Ruth, Musial, etc.). Some guys just met some arbitrary round number, and deserve some recognition, but aren't truly great ballplayers (McGwire, Sosa, etc.).
They get recognition.

Hell, Pete Rose is all over the Hall....so is Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire & Roger Clemens- they just don't have a plaques
7/27/2016 2:55 PM
Pujols is another one. Had a PED guy as a strength trainer. Hardly ever gets mentioned in PED talk.
7/27/2016 2:58 PM
Posted by dahsdebater on 7/27/2016 2:24:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Jtpsops on 7/27/2016 1:22:00 PM (view original):
If you want to argue 500 shouldn't be a benchmark, that's fine, but everyone who hit that mark is in (except Bonds and Palmeiro. Thome will be in when he's eligible).

Not to mention, I would argue that McGwire redefined power in a way that maybe only Ruth has surpassed. His homers were "bigger than the game" for a few years.
I'm not sure Thome will get in. The fact that he was well-liked might get him in near the end of his eligibility. I wouldn't rule it out. But given that his career largely overlapped with McGwire, Bagwell, Palmeiro, Frank Thomas, Jason Giambi, Edgar Martinez, Todd Helton, and Pujols, does he Thome really "feel" good enough to reach the bar for his era? Personally, I'd put Mac, Thomas, and Edgar in as "steroid era" 1B/DH types and Pujols as more of a post-steroid era guy and leave it at that (although if we're gonna talk about post-steroid era, you'd have to assume that Miggy's on his way to the Hall as well). If you wanted one more guy it would be Bagwell or Palmeiro. At another time, Giambi or Thome's numbers would certainly be good enough. But either one of them was basically about the 6th-best 1B/DH in baseball at his peak. I don't see how that's good enough. Heck, for about 2 years Giambi had a pretty strong argument as the best 1B in baseball. But it's 2 years. Outside of that too many guys were better than he was. Thome's best MVP finish was 4th in 2003, and two of the guys who finished below him (Javy Lopez and Helton) probably hit better in retrospect.

In an era in which guys like Gary Sheffield and Lance Berkman won't even merit serious consideration - and seriously, look how good those guys' numbers are if you don't already know - I don't see guys like Thome and Sosa deserving to get in. There were just too many people who were better.
Just my opinion, but I don't think Thome used, and I don't think many people feel he used. He was just a monster of a man, like Frank Thomas.

So he may have been the 5th or 6th best 1B of his ERA, but if the 5 ahead of him are all known or strongly-suspected users, he may get the nod as a guy who put up monster numbers cleanly.
7/27/2016 3:21 PM
Posted by wylie715 on 7/27/2016 2:15:00 PM (view original):
He was very good for a long time, but that does not make him hall of fame worthy.
Like Jeter.
7/27/2016 3:36 PM
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