Maybe I am super efficient at scouting but Topic

In the existing game, I can do my scouting in 20-30 minutes per season. My teams do okay.

I have now tried the beta with some effort once and significant effort the second time. I spent hours scouting and it was clearly not enough to make me feel that I had done the job thoroughly.

My life does not have room for hours of scouting per season of this game. The time requirements arise from

1. failure to plan for basic features like the ability to filter the visible recruit pool - this should have been a minimum operational requirement in the initial design phase
2. intentional addition of more layers and steps to obscure information - the design is to take more work
3. inefficient design which requires multiple clicks, looking in multiple places to gather info - I'm fine with adding analytic work - I'm not fine with adding busy work - I try very hard in my life and work to avoid busy work - repetitive, mindless activity. No way I will pay for the privilege of doing busy work
4. The design of the new game is poorly thought out - it is improving in the beta - but a number of the improvements are adding more layers of nonintuitive gaming in order to fix problems and side effects that were not foreseen

For fans of military history - this is operation market garden

For students of recent corporation strategy - this is akin to the corporate death wish of the makers of blackberry who took a great product down the path to near extinction.

But, the big problem is the time and mindless effort. Just not what I enjoy in a game. I like thinking about basketball. Analyzing basketball. Trying to find good players. I dont like manually sorting of data and I definitely dont like clicking here and there and everywhere in order to compile data.

The designers seem to think this is a minimum wage job for participants. This is a game that we pay to play. Busy work isnt fun and big time commitments are a negative.

So, just got my 1700th win in DI in the mother of all worlds Naismith. I expect I will not get to 1800 despite enjoying the game a great deal.

mike down.
7/25/2016 8:47 PM
In these forums people will probably buy what you're selling, fd343ny. In the beta forums people would just shrug, say "Yeah, it seems a lot more time consuming until you learn the ropes, then it isn't so bad" and move on. I'm one of the beta testers with a full-time job, so the beta gets second place for my time. Looks to me like the beta still changes mostly for the better with each new truncated season. That said, I still think in the end it is going to take more time overall for scouting and recruiting, but it is spread over much more of the season so the demands are not egregious.
7/25/2016 9:49 PM (edited)
Yeah - it does take a little longer, depending on how in depth you want to get, but it is spread out over a much longer period. So, to me it is better.

Here's an example.

In the current system, for my Hawaii team, recruiting starts on Wednesday. I will not have a budget until tomorrow morning, so by the time I start to look at it at around 8 AM, I have 34 hours to research and come up with a game plan.

In Beta, we get our budget at 6 PM tomorrow. Scouting starts then. It is a 2 game a day world. Recruiting starts at 8 AM Saturday. If it was a one game a day world, it would start next Wednesday, I believe, so in a 2 day world, you have 4 days, and in a 1 day world you have 8 days to do scouting before recruiting even starts.

In addition, you can still scout during recruiting, and recruiting lasts longer as well. In a 2 day world, the first recruiting period starts Saturday at 8 AM and ends Thursday at 11 PM, which is 6 days. In a 1 day world, I am assuming it would be a 12 day period.

Signings start on Tuesday, which is 2 days after it begins, but I assume in a 1 day world, it is 4 days. Not that many recruits sign in the first cycle, maybe only 5% and it seems like 5% or 10% per cycle. Some recruits do not sign until the end of the first period and some do not sign until the second period, which is after the season ends.

In this game, if you miss the first cycle, you are kind of in a bad place. In Beta you are not. Also, the first cycle in this game is 2 hours. In Beta it is 9 hours, to get your first attention points out there.

So, it is a much more relaxed pace, and it gives me something to do during the season besides just setting my teams.
7/25/2016 10:23 PM (edited)
Posted by CoachSpud on 7/25/2016 9:49:00 PM (view original):
In these forums people will probably buy what you're selling, fd343ny. In the beta forums people would just shrug, say "Yeah, it seems a lot more time consuming until you learn the ropes, then it isn't so bad" and move on. I'm one of the beta testers with a full-time job, so the beta gets second place for my time. Looks to me like the beta still changes mostly for the better with each new truncated season. That said, I still think in the end it is going to take more time overall for scouting and recruiting, but it is spread over much more of the season so the demands are not egregious.
not "selling" anything spud.

stating my observations based on trying the beta and lots of experience with the current game - and expressing my opinion based on that experience

lets engage in actual discussion on this - how many hours total do you think it took you to handle scouting for the current beta season? how long do you think it will take once you have lots of practice at the system?

by the way "it isnt so bad" sure is a major endorsement of a new version of a product!

7/25/2016 10:49 PM
Fd, i always questioned the move to design the game as you said in #2. That was clearly the decision. The issue you point out in #1 is an offshoot of the decision to go with #2.

My sense is that WIS understands there's an issue with the amount of time it takes to sort data. We have some assurance that some of those sorting features will be in place this time around. So, we'll see.

I think you'll clear 2000.
7/25/2016 10:51 PM
Posted by CoachSpud on 7/25/2016 9:49:00 PM (view original):
In these forums people will probably buy what you're selling, fd343ny. In the beta forums people would just shrug, say "Yeah, it seems a lot more time consuming until you learn the ropes, then it isn't so bad" and move on. I'm one of the beta testers with a full-time job, so the beta gets second place for my time. Looks to me like the beta still changes mostly for the better with each new truncated season. That said, I still think in the end it is going to take more time overall for scouting and recruiting, but it is spread over much more of the season so the demands are not egregious.
This guy could come up with the greatest idea in the history of the world but because he's already taken all of his credibility, whipped it out, and jumped up and down on it with golf cleats, no one would hear him.

All they'd hear is "background noise".

His HD experience and ideas remind me every much of those Holiday Inn Express commercials.

Apologies for going off track FD, I'll not post anymore here and risk hijacking your thread.
7/25/2016 11:58 PM
For me in low Div-1 in New England in Beta HD:

1. On the day that scouting opens, I buy FSS for the 6 New England states, New York and New Jersey.

2. I scout every New Englander and New Jerseyite to Level 4. This involves clicking a radio button at each player name when i list them by state. I then click the master radio button that says "Scout to Level 4". This sets me back maybe $20k and 8 minutes.

3. Because NY has so many recruits, i click the radio button on the A's and B's and maybe a handful of others. I then click on "Scout to Level 4". This sets me back maybe $5k more and another 5 minutes.

4. At this point, in Beta HD, I have from gameslot #1 thru gameslot #20 to sort thru these 150 to 200 recruits. So almost 3 weeks to sort my players and prioritize things. This often includes maybe FSS-ing random other states that may have an intriguing prospect. It does include looking at some of fhe Hot-100 prospects, and scouting some of them to Level 4.

5. Typically in Classic HD, I enter the season with $24 to my name (because i'm constantly fending off rivals typically)... i can't FSS any state til 18 hours before recruiting starts. So in Classic i have to do in 18 hours as much as i can now do in Beta in 3 weeks. In addition, in Beta i can pre-load my first recruiting actions 8 hours in advance... as opposed to the small 6pm to 8pm window in Classic... typically in Classic at 6pm in the Spring, it's the exact hour that a 2 hour Little League game starts for one of my 2 sons... and i help coach, so i'm loading recruiting actions while coaching thirdbase and it's not ideal. I do it anyway, but again, it's a pain.

6. In Beta scouting, i can limit my scouting to the opening scouting day, and sort that day. Or, typically, i enjoy popping on the site each day and shuffling guys and priorities.

7. To me, just my opinion, i liked the layout and graphics and fonts in Classic HD... the Beta fonts of the players' names are too light and meek, and need to be in bolder (or revert back to the same font, size and boldness of Classic HD, which was graphically perfect). Also, again just my finicky opinion, the typical Beta HD screens need space on the margins (like it is in Classic HD) because graphically in Beta HD the numbers on the team page tend to flow off the page awkwardly to my eyes... again, just my finicky opinion.

8. To me, during the Beta test, it's a pain the way i have to access the HD Beta, since it's not in the main locker room, and security blocks the Beta HD at my main computer when i check at lunch.

9. In summary, i have enjoyed Beta HD the samevway i enjoy Classic HD. Preferably the fonts get bolder, and margins appear, but no biggie. Everything else to me is an improvement or at least equal to Classic HD. To me, i could have continued to live with Classic HD since i really enjoy the game. But i like Beta HD as well and expect to keep playing and having fun and a nice diversion from everyday pressures.
7/26/2016 12:36 AM (edited)
"how many hours total do you think it took you to handle scouting for the current beta season? how long do you think it will take once you have lots of practice at the system?"

I didn't keep track. It was done in my spare time for the most part. That's why I said I like how spread out it is. One day I won't have time and another day I will, and as long as we have six-hour cycles that works quite well. I think if you learn your way around the new features it isn't badly time consuming.
7/26/2016 12:46 AM
Posted by fd343ny on 7/25/2016 8:47:00 PM (view original):
In the existing game, I can do my scouting in 20-30 minutes per season. My teams do okay.

I have now tried the beta with some effort once and significant effort the second time. I spent hours scouting and it was clearly not enough to make me feel that I had done the job thoroughly.

My life does not have room for hours of scouting per season of this game. The time requirements arise from

1. failure to plan for basic features like the ability to filter the visible recruit pool - this should have been a minimum operational requirement in the initial design phase
2. intentional addition of more layers and steps to obscure information - the design is to take more work
3. inefficient design which requires multiple clicks, looking in multiple places to gather info - I'm fine with adding analytic work - I'm not fine with adding busy work - I try very hard in my life and work to avoid busy work - repetitive, mindless activity. No way I will pay for the privilege of doing busy work
4. The design of the new game is poorly thought out - it is improving in the beta - but a number of the improvements are adding more layers of nonintuitive gaming in order to fix problems and side effects that were not foreseen

For fans of military history - this is operation market garden

For students of recent corporation strategy - this is akin to the corporate death wish of the makers of blackberry who took a great product down the path to near extinction.

But, the big problem is the time and mindless effort. Just not what I enjoy in a game. I like thinking about basketball. Analyzing basketball. Trying to find good players. I dont like manually sorting of data and I definitely dont like clicking here and there and everywhere in order to compile data.

The designers seem to think this is a minimum wage job for participants. This is a game that we pay to play. Busy work isnt fun and big time commitments are a negative.

So, just got my 1700th win in DI in the mother of all worlds Naismith. I expect I will not get to 1800 despite enjoying the game a great deal.

mike down.
+1

I feel exactly the same. The time it takes me to scout now is ridiculous.
7/26/2016 1:03 AM
Posted by chapelhillne on 7/25/2016 10:23:00 PM (view original):
Yeah - it does take a little longer, depending on how in depth you want to get, but it is spread out over a much longer period. So, to me it is better.

Here's an example.

In the current system, for my Hawaii team, recruiting starts on Wednesday. I will not have a budget until tomorrow morning, so by the time I start to look at it at around 8 AM, I have 34 hours to research and come up with a game plan.

In Beta, we get our budget at 6 PM tomorrow. Scouting starts then. It is a 2 game a day world. Recruiting starts at 8 AM Saturday. If it was a one game a day world, it would start next Wednesday, I believe, so in a 2 day world, you have 4 days, and in a 1 day world you have 8 days to do scouting before recruiting even starts.

In addition, you can still scout during recruiting, and recruiting lasts longer as well. In a 2 day world, the first recruiting period starts Saturday at 8 AM and ends Thursday at 11 PM, which is 6 days. In a 1 day world, I am assuming it would be a 12 day period.

Signings start on Tuesday, which is 2 days after it begins, but I assume in a 1 day world, it is 4 days. Not that many recruits sign in the first cycle, maybe only 5% and it seems like 5% or 10% per cycle. Some recruits do not sign until the end of the first period and some do not sign until the second period, which is after the season ends.

In this game, if you miss the first cycle, you are kind of in a bad place. In Beta you are not. Also, the first cycle in this game is 2 hours. In Beta it is 9 hours, to get your first attention points out there.

So, it is a much more relaxed pace, and it gives me something to do during the season besides just setting my teams.
The problem is many of us want to scout and move on to recruiting and be done with scouting. I don't have the patience to set a little time aside each day to scout a little more. I'd rather spend my 30 minutes on the day before recruiting and be done with it.
7/26/2016 1:06 AM
Posted by poncho0091 on 7/26/2016 1:06:00 AM (view original):
Posted by chapelhillne on 7/25/2016 10:23:00 PM (view original):
Yeah - it does take a little longer, depending on how in depth you want to get, but it is spread out over a much longer period. So, to me it is better.

Here's an example.

In the current system, for my Hawaii team, recruiting starts on Wednesday. I will not have a budget until tomorrow morning, so by the time I start to look at it at around 8 AM, I have 34 hours to research and come up with a game plan.

In Beta, we get our budget at 6 PM tomorrow. Scouting starts then. It is a 2 game a day world. Recruiting starts at 8 AM Saturday. If it was a one game a day world, it would start next Wednesday, I believe, so in a 2 day world, you have 4 days, and in a 1 day world you have 8 days to do scouting before recruiting even starts.

In addition, you can still scout during recruiting, and recruiting lasts longer as well. In a 2 day world, the first recruiting period starts Saturday at 8 AM and ends Thursday at 11 PM, which is 6 days. In a 1 day world, I am assuming it would be a 12 day period.

Signings start on Tuesday, which is 2 days after it begins, but I assume in a 1 day world, it is 4 days. Not that many recruits sign in the first cycle, maybe only 5% and it seems like 5% or 10% per cycle. Some recruits do not sign until the end of the first period and some do not sign until the second period, which is after the season ends.

In this game, if you miss the first cycle, you are kind of in a bad place. In Beta you are not. Also, the first cycle in this game is 2 hours. In Beta it is 9 hours, to get your first attention points out there.

So, it is a much more relaxed pace, and it gives me something to do during the season besides just setting my teams.
The problem is many of us want to scout and move on to recruiting and be done with scouting. I don't have the patience to set a little time aside each day to scout a little more. I'd rather spend my 30 minutes on the day before recruiting and be done with it.
I think you can scout that first day in gameslot #1, and then do no more scouting at all, and you'll still be fine.
Recruiting/Signing, which for Period #1 is from gameslot #21 thru gameslot #26 requires checking in every 6 hours for those days. So 4 times a day. Then things go on hold during the CT and NT and Job Opening Period, before Recruiting/Signing Period #2 opens. This is also every 6 hours for a handful of days.
7/26/2016 1:19 AM
Posted by poncho0091 on 7/26/2016 1:06:00 AM (view original):
Posted by chapelhillne on 7/25/2016 10:23:00 PM (view original):
Yeah - it does take a little longer, depending on how in depth you want to get, but it is spread out over a much longer period. So, to me it is better.

Here's an example.

In the current system, for my Hawaii team, recruiting starts on Wednesday. I will not have a budget until tomorrow morning, so by the time I start to look at it at around 8 AM, I have 34 hours to research and come up with a game plan.

In Beta, we get our budget at 6 PM tomorrow. Scouting starts then. It is a 2 game a day world. Recruiting starts at 8 AM Saturday. If it was a one game a day world, it would start next Wednesday, I believe, so in a 2 day world, you have 4 days, and in a 1 day world you have 8 days to do scouting before recruiting even starts.

In addition, you can still scout during recruiting, and recruiting lasts longer as well. In a 2 day world, the first recruiting period starts Saturday at 8 AM and ends Thursday at 11 PM, which is 6 days. In a 1 day world, I am assuming it would be a 12 day period.

Signings start on Tuesday, which is 2 days after it begins, but I assume in a 1 day world, it is 4 days. Not that many recruits sign in the first cycle, maybe only 5% and it seems like 5% or 10% per cycle. Some recruits do not sign until the end of the first period and some do not sign until the second period, which is after the season ends.

In this game, if you miss the first cycle, you are kind of in a bad place. In Beta you are not. Also, the first cycle in this game is 2 hours. In Beta it is 9 hours, to get your first attention points out there.

So, it is a much more relaxed pace, and it gives me something to do during the season besides just setting my teams.
The problem is many of us want to scout and move on to recruiting and be done with scouting. I don't have the patience to set a little time aside each day to scout a little more. I'd rather spend my 30 minutes on the day before recruiting and be done with it.
I usually end up doing all of my scouting as soon as it is available, unless I do one of the national camps. That's one of the things I would like to see changed. Right now, the national camps are all on different days. So, if you want to go to one of them as part of your scouting strategy, you have to wait to finish scouting. I wish you could go to those at any time, but I guess that would be a bit unrealistic, but still something I'd sacrifice realism for practicality over. Last year, I skipped the national camp because there was plenty of money, but this year the scouting budgets will be lower.
7/26/2016 8:04 AM
chapel, the camps certainly need to be earlier in the recruiting period, that's for sure. It is the best way to avoid groping in the dark. Seble wants us to be strategic -- we'll need something or somebody to be strategic with.
7/26/2016 8:12 AM
interesting comments - especially npb note about going to level 4 on entire sets of states - I have been schooled to be frugal and hence have not done that. Perhaps one can consume scouting budget as a trade off to time devoted to looking at individual recruits. And perhaps filters on ratings will allow more efficient mass scouting to level 3 or 4 - targeted to guys who could conceivably be of interest

slogging through player after player, considering whether to scout to additional levels and then move on to next player is just drudgery
7/26/2016 8:22 AM
I think it took me 111 minutes to scout in Beta season 3. Best guess is it takes me about 30-40 minutes to scout in current HD.

I like the added complexity, the decision making on how to spend my budget and the time flexibility. I also like the instantaneous nature of information.

For me it's a trade off, more time spent but it's fun time. I don't see it as work.
7/26/2016 8:52 AM
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