When to play "+" defense Topic

I've always played "+" defense against a team that shoots a lot of 3s. But what should I do against a team with a low three-point percentage (around 30) but most of its points come from guards? I could play "-" and they'll jack up a fair number of missed 3s. Even though they don't shoot well, should I still play a "+" defense because the guards can score?

I'm sure there's a much better way to word that.
7/26/2016 11:36 AM
- defense
7/26/2016 11:48 AM
I play a + defense whenever a team takes more than 33% of their shots from behind the arc. I don't use fg% as part of decision making process.
7/26/2016 1:24 PM
Contrary to Trenton, I play + defense based on three criterias, 3PT FG%, AVERAGE THREES ATTEMPTED IN A GAME and PER+BH of the three points shooters.
7/26/2016 1:45 PM
i base it on, in this order:
%of Fgs from 3pt
rebounding advantage
3pt fg%
[and if necessary]:
scoring distribution (guards vs forwards)
some view of ratings: lp vs per (for game 1 of the season), ath (likeliness to draw free throws)

if a team shoots a lot of 3s and misses them, let him shoot them
7/26/2016 2:24 PM
It's tricky and you have to take into consideration a number of factors when deciding to play a + defense.

Yanks made a good point about a team taking a lot of 3s and missing them and letting them shoot them. Your worst enemy is allowing offensive rebounds, because then the scoring chances increase significantly.. Also, if the other team has good athleticism and low post, they can adjust against a + defense and look to score inside. The SIM will automatically do this. The benefits of playing a + defense is you don't foul as often.

Also, try to find comparable teams to your team they've played, for instance, good man to man defense and see how they shot. I've had teams that have shot a much higher percentage against a certain type of defense compared to other defenses
7/26/2016 2:42 PM
Appreciate the opinions, guys. I'm probably overthinking it in this instance.
7/26/2016 2:57 PM
Posted by Trentonjoe on 7/26/2016 1:24:00 PM (view original):
I play a + defense whenever a team takes more than 33% of their shots from behind the arc. I don't use fg% as part of decision making process.
Before anyone reads any further please note that everything that follows is 100% true, no sarcasm, no exaggerations. And................begin!


This is pretty much all I do as well. At a third (33%), I probably still play a +1 but in that case it would depend if the other team has dominant low post scoring. Anything higher than 33% gets a plus something (depends on just how many threes they shoot over 1/3). Anything lower than 33% gets a minus defense of some sort, the less three the larger minus.

Don't overthink things like this too much people. I've had several people site mail asking for advice or an answer to a question and I've found that "most" of the time the person site mailing me has made a small molehill of a problem into something resembling Mount Everest. I know it's hard to believe because the game is so damn addicting but this is neither rocket science or brain surgery that we're doing here. In 10+ years of playing this game, I have yet to use a spreadsheet or any kind of fancy computer generated algorithms, never bothered with regressions or trying to tear the engine apart to get to the guts of the game. Not one time for any of that stuff.

I generally have a pen and a scratch pad of paper that I use (and I have to admit, a small chart that I use to keep track of my lineup but that's all handwritten too) but my main method for determining things is that old stand-by, the "Eyeball Test".

The game has lots and lots of moving parts and calculations, algorithms, and formulas that we don't get to see behind the scenes and I'm glad that we don't because it wouldn't take long for some folks around here to figure EVERYTHING out. But when it's all said and done and all those formulas and calculations start spitting plays and results out, it really boils down to this: the game is very complicated behind the magic curtain and it's not that difficult for us the coaches. Most of being a successful coach is common sense, simple as that.

To the OP, sorry for taking this in a different direction but I believe this reply is still related in a meaningful way to the question you originally asked. Thanks folks!!

7/26/2016 3:13 PM
Posted by emy1013 on 7/26/2016 3:13:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Trentonjoe on 7/26/2016 1:24:00 PM (view original):
I play a + defense whenever a team takes more than 33% of their shots from behind the arc. I don't use fg% as part of decision making process.
Before anyone reads any further please note that everything that follows is 100% true, no sarcasm, no exaggerations. And................begin!


This is pretty much all I do as well. At a third (33%), I probably still play a +1 but in that case it would depend if the other team has dominant low post scoring. Anything higher than 33% gets a plus something (depends on just how many threes they shoot over 1/3). Anything lower than 33% gets a minus defense of some sort, the less three the larger minus.

Don't overthink things like this too much people. I've had several people site mail asking for advice or an answer to a question and I've found that "most" of the time the person site mailing me has made a small molehill of a problem into something resembling Mount Everest. I know it's hard to believe because the game is so damn addicting but this is neither rocket science or brain surgery that we're doing here. In 10+ years of playing this game, I have yet to use a spreadsheet or any kind of fancy computer generated algorithms, never bothered with regressions or trying to tear the engine apart to get to the guts of the game. Not one time for any of that stuff.

I generally have a pen and a scratch pad of paper that I use (and I have to admit, a small chart that I use to keep track of my lineup but that's all handwritten too) but my main method for determining things is that old stand-by, the "Eyeball Test".

The game has lots and lots of moving parts and calculations, algorithms, and formulas that we don't get to see behind the scenes and I'm glad that we don't because it wouldn't take long for some folks around here to figure EVERYTHING out. But when it's all said and done and all those formulas and calculations start spitting plays and results out, it really boils down to this: the game is very complicated behind the magic curtain and it's not that difficult for us the coaches. Most of being a successful coach is common sense, simple as that.

To the OP, sorry for taking this in a different direction but I believe this reply is still related in a meaningful way to the question you originally asked. Thanks folks!!

Nope, emy, I won't stand for hijacking of any kind in my threads. I'm going to make a pot of coffee using Red Bull instead of water and give it to Ward, Only, and Spud, and lock them in a room with you.
7/26/2016 3:21 PM
Posted by pallas on 7/26/2016 3:21:00 PM (view original):
Posted by emy1013 on 7/26/2016 3:13:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Trentonjoe on 7/26/2016 1:24:00 PM (view original):
I play a + defense whenever a team takes more than 33% of their shots from behind the arc. I don't use fg% as part of decision making process.
Before anyone reads any further please note that everything that follows is 100% true, no sarcasm, no exaggerations. And................begin!


This is pretty much all I do as well. At a third (33%), I probably still play a +1 but in that case it would depend if the other team has dominant low post scoring. Anything higher than 33% gets a plus something (depends on just how many threes they shoot over 1/3). Anything lower than 33% gets a minus defense of some sort, the less three the larger minus.

Don't overthink things like this too much people. I've had several people site mail asking for advice or an answer to a question and I've found that "most" of the time the person site mailing me has made a small molehill of a problem into something resembling Mount Everest. I know it's hard to believe because the game is so damn addicting but this is neither rocket science or brain surgery that we're doing here. In 10+ years of playing this game, I have yet to use a spreadsheet or any kind of fancy computer generated algorithms, never bothered with regressions or trying to tear the engine apart to get to the guts of the game. Not one time for any of that stuff.

I generally have a pen and a scratch pad of paper that I use (and I have to admit, a small chart that I use to keep track of my lineup but that's all handwritten too) but my main method for determining things is that old stand-by, the "Eyeball Test".

The game has lots and lots of moving parts and calculations, algorithms, and formulas that we don't get to see behind the scenes and I'm glad that we don't because it wouldn't take long for some folks around here to figure EVERYTHING out. But when it's all said and done and all those formulas and calculations start spitting plays and results out, it really boils down to this: the game is very complicated behind the magic curtain and it's not that difficult for us the coaches. Most of being a successful coach is common sense, simple as that.

To the OP, sorry for taking this in a different direction but I believe this reply is still related in a meaningful way to the question you originally asked. Thanks folks!!

Nope, emy, I won't stand for hijacking of any kind in my threads. I'm going to make a pot of coffee using Red Bull instead of water and give it to Ward, Only, and Spud, and lock them in a room with you.
lol
7/26/2016 3:41 PM
Posted by pallas on 7/26/2016 3:21:00 PM (view original):
Posted by emy1013 on 7/26/2016 3:13:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Trentonjoe on 7/26/2016 1:24:00 PM (view original):
I play a + defense whenever a team takes more than 33% of their shots from behind the arc. I don't use fg% as part of decision making process.
Before anyone reads any further please note that everything that follows is 100% true, no sarcasm, no exaggerations. And................begin!


This is pretty much all I do as well. At a third (33%), I probably still play a +1 but in that case it would depend if the other team has dominant low post scoring. Anything higher than 33% gets a plus something (depends on just how many threes they shoot over 1/3). Anything lower than 33% gets a minus defense of some sort, the less three the larger minus.

Don't overthink things like this too much people. I've had several people site mail asking for advice or an answer to a question and I've found that "most" of the time the person site mailing me has made a small molehill of a problem into something resembling Mount Everest. I know it's hard to believe because the game is so damn addicting but this is neither rocket science or brain surgery that we're doing here. In 10+ years of playing this game, I have yet to use a spreadsheet or any kind of fancy computer generated algorithms, never bothered with regressions or trying to tear the engine apart to get to the guts of the game. Not one time for any of that stuff.

I generally have a pen and a scratch pad of paper that I use (and I have to admit, a small chart that I use to keep track of my lineup but that's all handwritten too) but my main method for determining things is that old stand-by, the "Eyeball Test".

The game has lots and lots of moving parts and calculations, algorithms, and formulas that we don't get to see behind the scenes and I'm glad that we don't because it wouldn't take long for some folks around here to figure EVERYTHING out. But when it's all said and done and all those formulas and calculations start spitting plays and results out, it really boils down to this: the game is very complicated behind the magic curtain and it's not that difficult for us the coaches. Most of being a successful coach is common sense, simple as that.

To the OP, sorry for taking this in a different direction but I believe this reply is still related in a meaningful way to the question you originally asked. Thanks folks!!

Nope, emy, I won't stand for hijacking of any kind in my threads. I'm going to make a pot of coffee using Red Bull instead of water and give it to Ward, Only, and Spud, and lock them in a room with you.
That would be..................interesting to say the least.
7/26/2016 3:50 PM
You are all forgetting one important aspect.
How good is YOUR defense. You are talking like the assumption is your team defense is perfectly balanced at 0.

Well what if your guards suck and your LP defense rock? Maybe your "0" should really be a "+1", and all your analysis should add a +1 to it.
Class dismissed.
7/26/2016 5:09 PM
My guards never suck.
7/26/2016 7:49 PM
Posted by mullycj on 7/26/2016 5:09:00 PM (view original):
You are all forgetting one important aspect.
How good is YOUR defense. You are talking like the assumption is your team defense is perfectly balanced at 0.

Well what if your guards suck and your LP defense rock? Maybe your "0" should really be a "+1", and all your analysis should add a +1 to it.
Class dismissed.
good post mully. my teams often have a "base" setting of -0.5 or +1, based on the situation - and i recommend even non-expert coaches try to think that way.

although sometimes, its worth considering that a multiplier on a strength is a bigger net than a multiplier on a weakness, and to double down, counter to the logic above. it depends on the situation and where you are in the curve so to speak, but i have at times followed the above logic, and other times, did the exact opposite (that is a general comment more so than just about +/-, although i've applied that logic to +/- in extreme cases).

really, what mully said is a bit of an oversimplification. you really want to figure out a base +/- situation for your team as a whole. your defense is one consideration, but so might be your depth, your set, and more. for example, on pressing teams, i am less likely to play a - defense than i am on a man team, because a - defense impacts foul trouble and that matters a LOT more if you are a press team - especially if you are a championship caliber press team, or a 10 man or less press team. for title teams, volatility is the main enemy, so a foul/fatigue outlier is one of the biggest concerns, which makes - largely unsuitable for all but your best opponents. for shorter press teams, foul trouble basically destroys you, its not just the outlier you are worried about, but even one single player being in foul trouble can do major damage. i had a 10 deep title press team a while back, i have to imagine i never played a - all season, although its possible if it was a top flight opponent who literally took no 3s, that i'd have played a -1 (normally i'd play a -3 or -5).

in general, you can get most of the way there by simply boiling it down to 1 thing - what % of fga are 3pta, for your opponent. the 33% number thrown out by emy IMO is too high, but mostly i press and mostly he plays man, which inherently is better vs 3s and doesn't have the fatigue trouble. i use a figure closer to 25%, but a spread of 5% for that figure might really be appropriate given the different in situation (see above). still, 33% is too high, but not by much - and maybe not at all, if your team is garbage and volatility is your friend.

anyway, my point is, for coaches trying to be consistent NT coaches, going off of 3pta/fga is literally enough. somewhere in the 25-33% range is where you should start playing a +1, and go +/- 1 for every 4-5% or so. that's probably a better approach just by itself, than the average HD coach takes. from there, you can get basically arbitrarily complex, but most of that complexity could be stated not knowing your opponent's stats - it would come down to who you are, and how likely you are to win (3s are a main source of volatility, and the importance of limiting volatility varies wildly depending on your situation). when game planning for the NT, all i really consider are 3pta/fga, 3pt%, 2pt% (to a much lesser extent than 3pt%, the variance among "real" opponents is much less, really you are just looking to evaluate how valuable 3pt shots are for this team), and either SOS or the actual ratings of the players. the last bit is to get a sense of where the team's performance would be on a standardized SOS of whatever you consider a standard SOS (to me, its basically a top 10 SOS, because i only care about top notch opponents, but to each their own) - or really, of how that team would perform against YOU (considering how they'd perform at a std level of competition is a good way to get there, though). and by SOS i mean true SOS, not the listed one. anyway, you could look at ratings and shots for their 3pt shooters to get a sense of where they should "really" be (trying to work SOS and randomness out of the result - which is less important in the NT when extreme randomness already had time to work its way out), but that is probably something most coaches cannot accurately assess. its far easier to look at SOS and adjust up or down a bit based on their SOS.

getting into stuff like how an opponent fared against various defenses, to me, you just lead yourself to drawing conclusions that aren't there. small sample size is more likely to bite you, if you do that - realistically, you should have a stronger understanding of how a team performs against various offenses than you can get by looking at a handful of game results. plus, frankly, how a defense guards the 3 is pretty straight forward and fairly well understood (i think), so there is no reason to over complicate and draw correlations that aren't there (besides, i don't think this could even realistically be assessed by anybody playing this game - to try to look at 3 point performance at one team, based on the defense of the other team, you'd have to adjust for a massive amount of stuff - the quality of the defense as a whole, of individual matchups, the +/- played, HCA, and more. frankly, i don't think i could even hope to make that assessment, so don't take it as an insult that I don't believe you/anyone else could, either - that is outside of the fact that any conclusion you drew on the subject, i would consider wrong, because i consider the impact a defense has on the offensive performance of a player to be fixed - maybe the D is better vs 3s, but its not going to be more the case for a high bh guard than a high spd guard, the game just isn't that complex - im 95% sure of that). another example, some people also like to look at the losses of the opponent, and see what they lost to. that's ok for newer / less experienced coaches, but it really makes me cringe. often an NT opponent might have like 4 losses, you can't draw conclusions from that sample and should be seeking a better understanding of the game than you could get off a few cherry picked games anyway. just because the team lost, doesn't mean they lost due to 3 pt shooting, and all that.
7/26/2016 8:34 PM (edited)
Posted by thewizard17 on 7/26/2016 2:44:00 PM (view original):
It's tricky and you have to take into consideration a number of factors when deciding to play a + defense.

Yanks made a good point about a team taking a lot of 3s and missing them and letting them shoot them. Your worst enemy is allowing offensive rebounds, because then the scoring chances increase significantly.. Also, if the other team has good athleticism and low post, they can adjust against a + defense and look to score inside. The SIM will automatically do this. The benefits of playing a + defense is you don't foul as often.

Also, try to find comparable teams to your team they've played, for instance, good man to man defense and see how they shot. I've had teams that have shot a much higher percentage against a certain type of defense compared to other defenses
just in case anyone is wondering who i was talking to, trying to discourage the behavior of considering how the opponent performed against various defenses, it was this post / thewizard17. wasn't sure that would be clear... i felt i had phrased it a little different, and upon re-read of the post that inspired mine, i still feel that is true...
7/26/2016 8:38 PM
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