AL East 1, Dead Sox 0 Topic

Posted by dahsdebater on 8/3/2016 9:51:00 PM (view original):
How many years did they sign Price for?
What, until 2019/2020 with the opt out he might take? What is your point?
8/4/2016 7:33 AM
Well, I won't speak for dahs, as I speak for dahs, but signing Price for multi-years seems like they might feel they don't HAVE to win this year. Maybe they think they have a chance to win in 2017-2019/20. Seems to me that Bahstan is only losing Big PEDi this year. They might have a future if they keep their younger guys.

Essentially you're suggesting that they do exactly what Bahstan/NY has done for years. Win now, worry about the future when it gets here.
8/4/2016 8:04 AM
I kinda feel like the Sox have to win every season, and I feel that they didn't sign Price now because they expect to compete in 2017 - 2018. They expect to win now. You don't sign a guy to a contract like that unless you think you are there.

Plus, why wait?

Yanks are rebuilding.
Orioles are suspect
Blue Jays aren't strong in the pitching dept and have FA issues next season.

So if they feel like they just need a piece or two to put them over the top, then why not move some prospects. Its not like they have an aging roster.

Please note that I HATE the Dead Sox, so the fact that they didn't help their cause is all gravy to me.

8/4/2016 12:10 PM
What do you think would have been a reasonable trade for them to pursue, something realistic, that doesn't cost them massively in total expected value?
8/4/2016 2:26 PM
You can never have too much young talent.
8/4/2016 3:38 PM
What Mike said.
8/4/2016 8:42 PM
"We got way too many young, good, cheap players!!!!! What the **** should we do?!!?!??!?!?!"
"Trade them cheap, young, good players away!!!!!!!!"
8/4/2016 9:08 PM
Posted by dahsdebater on 8/4/2016 2:26:00 PM (view original):
What do you think would have been a reasonable trade for them to pursue, something realistic, that doesn't cost them massively in total expected value?
Well, I wouldn't throw them away in a rental, but if you could get a Chris Sale or someone that can help you into next year or beyond, I think thats a plus.
8/5/2016 7:25 AM
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/4/2016 9:08:00 PM (view original):
"We got way too many young, good, cheap players!!!!! What the **** should we do?!!?!??!?!?!"
"Trade them cheap, young, good players away!!!!!!!!"
Yeah, not really what I was saying there. What I am saying is, if your team is close, you built it up to your fans, are you going to turn to your fan base and say "I know we have a very good, contending, YOUNG team, but we're gonna hold on to that surplus talent so we can be in an even better position 2 years later."

From where I come, people get ******.

The Phillies only won 1 WS and lost another. But each year they went out and got the pieces they (thought they) needed. Did those pieces guarantee a championship? No. But did they improve the team? Yes.

"But SJ, they gave up all those prospects! They lost in most of those trades" - thats what dahs is saying.

Lets see who they got -
2009 - Cliff Lee, Ben Francisco

Gave up - RHP Jason Knapp, RHP Carlos Carrasco, SS Jason Donald and C Lou Marson.

2010 - Roy Oswalt

Gave up - LHP J.A. Happ, OF Anthony Gose and SS Jonathan Villar.

2011 - Hunter Pence

1B Jonathan Singleton, Jarred Cosart, RHP Josh Zeid and OF Domingo Santana.

Of the players that are Major Leaguers that they traded away, we have - Carlos Carrasco (Pretty good SP starting in 2014), JA Happ (Up and down SP who has only been above average the last year or so), Villar (ditto), Cozart (a bust), and Santana and Singleton (still waiting to see what'll come there). The rest (including Gose) are useless.

So they shouldn't have made those trades because, gee, they should have saved them for 2011? 2012?
8/5/2016 7:40 AM
You're right, other than Carrasco (who is a stud), they really didn't give much up.
8/5/2016 10:00 AM
IDK, I guess there isn't a clear right way or wrong way. I'm not saying dahs is necessarily wrong. You shouldn't throw away upper level prospects for straight rentals, but if you're obtaining a solid player that can push you over the top, and those prospects are already blocked, then why not trade them?

Seriously, Singleton was a top prospect. But he wasn't a BLer. Pence was a proven Bler. Not trading Singleton only means you retain a player who has a 'good possibility' of being a good BLer. You usually already know what you have in the player you are getting.

But if I was a Dead Sox fan, I wouldn't be happy that they didn't make a move if the players being mentioned were indeed available.
8/5/2016 11:01 AM
Posted by sjpoker on 8/5/2016 7:42:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/4/2016 9:08:00 PM (view original):
"We got way too many young, good, cheap players!!!!! What the **** should we do?!!?!??!?!?!"
"Trade them cheap, young, good players away!!!!!!!!"
Yeah, not really what I was saying there. What I am saying is, if your team is close, you built it up to your fans, are you going to turn to your fan base and say "I know we have a very good, contending, YOUNG team, but we're gonna hold on to that surplus talent so we can be in an even better position 2 years later."

From where I come, people get ******.

The Phillies only won 1 WS and lost another. But each year they went out and got the pieces they (thought they) needed. Did those pieces guarantee a championship? No. But did they improve the team? Yes.

"But SJ, they gave up all those prospects! They lost in most of those trades" - thats what dahs is saying.

Lets see who they got -
2009 - Cliff Lee, Ben Francisco

Gave up - RHP Jason Knapp, RHP Carlos Carrasco, SS Jason Donald and C Lou Marson.

2010 - Roy Oswalt

Gave up - LHP J.A. Happ, OF Anthony Gose and SS Jonathan Villar.

2011 - Hunter Pence

1B Jonathan Singleton, Jarred Cosart, RHP Josh Zeid and OF Domingo Santana.

Of the players that are Major Leaguers that they traded away, we have - Carlos Carrasco (Pretty good SP starting in 2014), JA Happ (Up and down SP who has only been above average the last year or so), Villar (ditto), Cozart (a bust), and Santana and Singleton (still waiting to see what'll come there). The rest (including Gose) are useless.

So they shouldn't have made those trades because, gee, they should have saved them for 2011? 2012?
But you do recognize that there are complete failures in doing trades like this too, right?

You can look at the Yankee transactions in the 80s if you need proof. They made all sorts of them and won nothing.
8/5/2016 11:45 AM
The Phillies situation ca. 2009-2011 was a lot different from the Red Sox current situation. In their place I probably would have sold on my valuable prospects, too, though in full knowledge that with an aging, overpaid roster and no near-ready prospects left I'd be heading for something like the wall they ran into a couple years later. The Phillies' key players (Howard, Utley, Werth, Rollins, Ruiz, Ibanez, Halladay, Lee) were already in their 30s with several also approaching free agency. IIRC Hamels was literally the only significant contributor to that team who wasn't over 30. Their window was very narrow. The Red Sox are very young. The only major contributors to that team over 30 are Big Papi, Pedroia, David Price (who is exactly 30 and a pitcher), and maybe Steven Wright this year (31, also should have lots of shelf life left if he's really this good). Their window is wide open; the back end of it really isn't even in sight. Those are radically different scenarios.

A better analog to the Phillies would be a team like Detroit or Seattle. Seattle wound up just a little too far out to buy, but Detroit would have bought if they had any prospects left. And that would be the right thing to do. In 3 years Boston should be one of the best teams in baseball. Detroit will probably be where the Phillies were in 2013 or so. Detroit has nothing to save for. Boston and the Cubs have everything to save for.
8/5/2016 12:54 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/5/2016 11:45:00 AM (view original):
Posted by sjpoker on 8/5/2016 7:42:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/4/2016 9:08:00 PM (view original):
"We got way too many young, good, cheap players!!!!! What the **** should we do?!!?!??!?!?!"
"Trade them cheap, young, good players away!!!!!!!!"
Yeah, not really what I was saying there. What I am saying is, if your team is close, you built it up to your fans, are you going to turn to your fan base and say "I know we have a very good, contending, YOUNG team, but we're gonna hold on to that surplus talent so we can be in an even better position 2 years later."

From where I come, people get ******.

The Phillies only won 1 WS and lost another. But each year they went out and got the pieces they (thought they) needed. Did those pieces guarantee a championship? No. But did they improve the team? Yes.

"But SJ, they gave up all those prospects! They lost in most of those trades" - thats what dahs is saying.

Lets see who they got -
2009 - Cliff Lee, Ben Francisco

Gave up - RHP Jason Knapp, RHP Carlos Carrasco, SS Jason Donald and C Lou Marson.

2010 - Roy Oswalt

Gave up - LHP J.A. Happ, OF Anthony Gose and SS Jonathan Villar.

2011 - Hunter Pence

1B Jonathan Singleton, Jarred Cosart, RHP Josh Zeid and OF Domingo Santana.

Of the players that are Major Leaguers that they traded away, we have - Carlos Carrasco (Pretty good SP starting in 2014), JA Happ (Up and down SP who has only been above average the last year or so), Villar (ditto), Cozart (a bust), and Santana and Singleton (still waiting to see what'll come there). The rest (including Gose) are useless.

So they shouldn't have made those trades because, gee, they should have saved them for 2011? 2012?
But you do recognize that there are complete failures in doing trades like this too, right?

You can look at the Yankee transactions in the 80s if you need proof. They made all sorts of them and won nothing.
They went for it and the only player of consequence was Carrasco. I'm good with that.

The last time they did that they lost Julio Franco and Ryne Sandberg!
8/5/2016 1:42 PM
Posted by dahsdebater on 8/5/2016 12:54:00 PM (view original):
The Phillies situation ca. 2009-2011 was a lot different from the Red Sox current situation. In their place I probably would have sold on my valuable prospects, too, though in full knowledge that with an aging, overpaid roster and no near-ready prospects left I'd be heading for something like the wall they ran into a couple years later. The Phillies' key players (Howard, Utley, Werth, Rollins, Ruiz, Ibanez, Halladay, Lee) were already in their 30s with several also approaching free agency. IIRC Hamels was literally the only significant contributor to that team who wasn't over 30. Their window was very narrow. The Red Sox are very young. The only major contributors to that team over 30 are Big Papi, Pedroia, David Price (who is exactly 30 and a pitcher), and maybe Steven Wright this year (31, also should have lots of shelf life left if he's really this good). Their window is wide open; the back end of it really isn't even in sight. Those are radically different scenarios.

A better analog to the Phillies would be a team like Detroit or Seattle. Seattle wound up just a little too far out to buy, but Detroit would have bought if they had any prospects left. And that would be the right thing to do. In 3 years Boston should be one of the best teams in baseball. Detroit will probably be where the Phillies were in 2013 or so. Detroit has nothing to save for. Boston and the Cubs have everything to save for.
Dahs -

Question: Who is coming out of the AL for the WS?
8/5/2016 1:43 PM
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