Train wreck imminent Topic

So we are now going to implement HD 3.0 based on exactly ONE beta season that actually ran as intended (and I'm using a rather loose interpretation of the phrase "as intended")? Is WIS nucking futs??!? Rather than smooth and evaluate a product and its effects on the game, we're going to rush it out to the paying customer base as quickly as possible, because that' worked SO well for you guys with GD 2.0, 2.1 and 3.0, right?

There is NO WAY this thing is ready to go and will have all the tweaks that have been brought to light ironed out. In the most recent season, there have been massive discussions in beta about the various scouting levels, budget levels (which we've never had any post-change discussions of the pros/cons), recruiting formulas/multiplier effects, etc.

Again, I'll repeat, there is NO WAY those discussions have been fully considered, much less integrated into whatever it is the folks from Wooden are getting lubed up in preparation for. Just earlier this week seble announced a change to the final 24 hour logic that I don't think has even been applied to a season yet, so absolutely no way to ascertain the impact of the change, if any. If changes were indicated from this past beta season, they, too, will be going live without ever having been play tested on mass scale.

Yeah, folks will be able to experience the new recruiting style. They'll also be doing so within a system that has a lot of ticks and dings. As far as I know, nothing has been done to address the lack of readability in some browsers that have been posted. Seemingly minor things like awards not loading, records vs. other coaches/teams not compiling or updating correctly, etc., may not seem like a big deal, but when you compound enough "minor things" together, they become a major thing.

I've tried to be objective. I've tried to be helpful and analytical with regard to the changes. Screaming "damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead" is a stupid decision from both a development and a business standpoint.

All hands brace for impact!!
8/10/2016 9:02 PM (edited)
I dont expect a train wreck

It will be more in the WIS tradition of continued beta testing in the guise of actual game play.

To be fair, there are some really terrific ideas in the new game. BUT, some major flaws appear to have not been addressed and it is clear that thorough, effficient scouting takes a ton more time and effort than in the existing game.

No train wreck, just a noisy sputtering deflating sound as many walk away
8/10/2016 9:05 PM
what are you talking about the kool-aid tastes fine to me, probably just worried your lack of talent will be apparent when you can't have everything handed to you.
8/10/2016 9:05 PM
Posted by fd343ny on 8/10/2016 9:05:00 PM (view original):
I dont expect a train wreck

It will be more in the WIS tradition of continued beta testing in the guise of actual game play.

To be fair, there are some really terrific ideas in the new game. BUT, some major flaws appear to have not been addressed and it is clear that thorough, effficient scouting takes a ton more time and effort than in the existing game.

No train wreck, just a noisy sputtering deflating sound as many walk away
Didn't we all know that they would release this before it was ready? They've done that with every release in the history of WIS, why would this be different? But all the veterans were being overly pessimistic when we mentioned that we'd be paying to beta test for 3-9 months.



8/10/2016 9:13 PM
In some instances, you just won't be able to simulate how coaches interact when its for real. Even if we could convince an ideal # of coaches to come test BETA and be just as active, some will insist on operating differently than they would under normal circumstances.

Such behavior is just going to skew any data we can get no matter how many BETA season we could run. I expect many tweaks once things settle down but we need WIS to do a marketing push otherwise we're going to bleed out.
8/10/2016 9:15 PM
New HD is based upon literally one person's vision of how they believe HD should work with zero input from the current paying user base on what was wanted or needed in HD. The Beta may have gotten "better" based upon the only option presented to users on what new HD truly should value, but if you did a survey of most vets the train may not wreck, it's simply going in the wrong direction. And that's a train I'm getting off.
8/10/2016 9:47 PM
Posted by fd343ny on 8/10/2016 9:05:00 PM (view original):
I dont expect a train wreck

It will be more in the WIS tradition of continued beta testing in the guise of actual game play.

To be fair, there are some really terrific ideas in the new game. BUT, some major flaws appear to have not been addressed and it is clear that thorough, effficient scouting takes a ton more time and effort than in the existing game.

No train wreck, just a noisy sputtering deflating sound as many walk away
There are some intriguing ideas in the game -- but that's exactly all they are at this point...ideas. Even if those ideas turn out to be the greatest ideas in the history of simulation sports (and I am in no way suggesting they are), releasing a product in the condition this one exists is, for lack of a better description, a sheer dumbass business decision.

New coaches are going to hang around to play a game that has visible naked-eye bugs? What message does that send about the product if someone is testing to see what it's like before opting to stay and shell out for a 5 or 10 pack? In a product with so many moving parts that were constantly being tweaked and re-tweaked, in some cases in the middle of beta seasons, they're going to take on blind faith that this last year was the bulls-eye of what we were objectively aiming for and not even going to run the beta another season to see if we can achieve replication of results? Foolhardy carelessness.

WIS rolled the dice by deciding to re-make the part of the game that the majority of its players found the most interesting and fascinating rather than the deficiencies its customers were asking/begging/hoping for them to address at any point over the last 3+ years. When making a decision of that magnitude, you generally want the final product to at least be polished, not something you're keeping duct tape nearby to patch up at a later date to be determined. That's just a case of pure sloppiness and lack of pride in both product and work.
8/11/2016 2:09 AM
This so fu*ked... I've been a supporter of the beta if they get it right, but they obviously don't yet. Do they even listen to us? This doesn't make any sense.
8/11/2016 2:45 AM
Why are you expecting a new version of a sim/game to be prefect? Look at any game that has a beta and when it first comes out, tons of errors, bugs, glitches, unbalances. Give it time, if its crap in 2-3 seasons, then quit. WIS every new engine update has been like this.
8/11/2016 2:50 AM
This is terribly under tested. We are still seeing material changes and spirited debate about how to correct issues. For crying out loud, Seble started a thread asking us to post our biggest known issues and the thread exploded. Four seasons does not a substantive sample make. I will be around for a while just because of credits. I doubt this will be fixed by the time I am done though. My biggest issue is the loss of the incentive to be part of a power conference and the enjoyment of playing against the best with common shared winnings to show for it in extra recruiting cash. Too many great coaches are walking away so the game just won't be as challenging any longer. The community will be changed for the worse.
8/11/2016 10:38 PM
Posted by jaydubz1515 on 8/11/2016 2:50:00 AM (view original):
Why are you expecting a new version of a sim/game to be prefect? Look at any game that has a beta and when it first comes out, tons of errors, bugs, glitches, unbalances. Give it time, if its crap in 2-3 seasons, then quit. WIS every new engine update has been like this.
+1
8/12/2016 8:41 AM
Posted by vandydave on 8/10/2016 9:47:00 PM (view original):
New HD is based upon literally one person's vision of how they believe HD should work with zero input from the current paying user base on what was wanted or needed in HD. The Beta may have gotten "better" based upon the only option presented to users on what new HD truly should value, but if you did a survey of most vets the train may not wreck, it's simply going in the wrong direction. And that's a train I'm getting off.
Dave, The game that you and "all the vets" want is not what is best for the game. Tweaking prestige, changing job logic and *gasp* switching recruit generation is not going to help new users stick with the game.

The number 1 goal of the update is to make new users want to play more and longer. The current system is difficult to learn. Guys like us all ready KNOW the back doors, secret formulas, and special hand shakes, this update isn't for us. It's for people who haven't played yet or at least don't know the ins and outs.

Quite frankly, guys like us aren't really supporting the game anymore. New guys that are vested are in a lower # than old timers that get bored and leave. The game was stale, not welcoming and wilting on the vine. At some point, it doesn't matter how good the buggy is.

With all that being said, I am making a leap of faith that the new game will not only still be good but be even better.
8/12/2016 9:54 AM
I played a lot of the NCAA video games back in the day, they seemed to have a good thing going with early and late signing periods.... The set up was nice to use. Obviously apples and oranges....

8/12/2016 10:18 AM
The point is no matter how much you cater to these no existent users, how are you going to bring them in? Is WIS going to magically advertise? Or is it one of those mass emails to all the players who left and hope they stick around.

I think many long time coaches even supported the idea of preferences and scouting, but not in the way it was implemented, had seble come up and listened to many of the actual complaints about the luck and randomness of preferences, and the intensive scouting that also was pretty lucky/random, but seble decided to bank WIS on the future of non existent customer while also driving out their long time customers.

Also the current system is extremely easy to learn, you literally just have to FSS and then learn about sending HV/CV. The biggest thing was identifying talent. Now you have an extensive multi part scouting process where the letters are made up and the numbers don't matter and then recruiting where no one knows the values of anything. Explain how it magically got easier? It just looks prettier..

And regardless if you magically hook in new customers, you know what they are going to be complaining about in a year or so? job logic and recruit gen.
8/12/2016 11:00 AM
Posted by Trentonjoe on 8/12/2016 9:54:00 AM (view original):
Posted by vandydave on 8/10/2016 9:47:00 PM (view original):
New HD is based upon literally one person's vision of how they believe HD should work with zero input from the current paying user base on what was wanted or needed in HD. The Beta may have gotten "better" based upon the only option presented to users on what new HD truly should value, but if you did a survey of most vets the train may not wreck, it's simply going in the wrong direction. And that's a train I'm getting off.
Dave, The game that you and "all the vets" want is not what is best for the game. Tweaking prestige, changing job logic and *gasp* switching recruit generation is not going to help new users stick with the game.

The number 1 goal of the update is to make new users want to play more and longer. The current system is difficult to learn. Guys like us all ready KNOW the back doors, secret formulas, and special hand shakes, this update isn't for us. It's for people who haven't played yet or at least don't know the ins and outs.

Quite frankly, guys like us aren't really supporting the game anymore. New guys that are vested are in a lower # than old timers that get bored and leave. The game was stale, not welcoming and wilting on the vine. At some point, it doesn't matter how good the buggy is.

With all that being said, I am making a leap of faith that the new game will not only still be good but be even better.
+1 Trentonjoe

The bottom line is that the changeover is going to happen, regardless of the continued posts on the topic.

Does anyone ACTUALLY think that HD 3.0 is not going to happen if they continue to post about how the sky is falling?
Why continue complain about something that's clearly going to happen?
Do anyone truly expect that continuing to complain will suddenly change seble's mind?
8/12/2016 11:33 AM
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