Derek Jeter's Last Stand Topic

dahsdebater
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Posted by trsnoke on 2/21/2014 4:30:00 PM (view original):
I'm just curious here, not trying to pick a fight, but why do you think they "know the game better than almost any of their contemporaries" - because of their success?
I would say it's more of a general approach to the game than success that I'm looking at.  Adam Jones is fairly successful, but I don't think he understands the game well at all.  John McDonald and Brian Schneider would both be excellent examples of guys who I think have a very solid understanding of the game but never had the talent to be very successful.

Jeter has adapted his offensive gameplan to stay relevant as his swing and his legs have slowed down.  He's always had a great approach at the plate and on the basepaths.  But lots of guys run the bases well.  Where I think you really see it is on defense.  Jeter's defensive positioning has been questioned by several people in this thread, yourself included.  But his ability to make good decisions after the ball comes off the bat is undeniable.  The most famous defensive play of his life is a prime example.  He was "way out of position" on that play; certainly no book on baseball in the world would have told him to be where he was on the field.  Some of his critics have actually criticized him for being out of position.  But realistically, he was the only place he could have been where he would have an opportunity to have an impact on the result of that game.  That's pure baseball instinct right there, the ability to make split-second decisions that will help your team win games.  And you can't do that without understanding the game.
2/21/2014 6:04 PM
MikeT23
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I think you're giving him a lot of "brain" credit for something he just saw and reacted to.    He looks at the play from SS, sees the RF, 2B and 1B.   He sees the throw and thinks "It's going to miss both cut-off men."   The biggest difference, IMO, between him and most SS is that most SS just stand there and do what they're taught to do(cover 2nd to prevent the runner from taking liberties).   I don't think that play is any indication that he'd be a good manager.    He just saw a play and made it happen. 

But, other than C, I think SS have to understand the game better than most.    A SS has something to do on every struck ball.
2/21/2014 6:25 PM
dahsdebater
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You can't make the right (/wrong) play in that situation without a solid internal databank of potential outcomes reflecting a solid working knowledge of how things happen and what most players will or won't be trying to do in the situation.  Realistically, though, game knowledge is probably at best a tertiary skill in managing.  You have coaches to help with all the specific aspects of on-field play and help players improve their swings, their defensive positioning, pitching deliveries, etc.  The two characteristics that seem almost universal amongst successful managers in the modern game are success at dealing with and managing the media and respect from the players.  They don't necessarily have to like you on a personal level, but they need to respect you and trust that you are going to do what's best for the team, even if they don't necessarily agree with it.  So your players have to think you know what's going on; I would actually consider this more important than the reality of how well you understand what's happening on the field.  I would also argue that successful managing requires more balls than baseball smarts in most cases.  Almost all managers would rather let their pitchers work out of jams rather than running through too many pitchers trying to get out of innings.  But guys who are too busy being scared for their jobs tend to lack the confidence to do that and will have a shorter hook.  You obviously need to be able to recognize (or listen to the pitching coach who recognizes) when a guy is out of gas or confidence and realistically may not be able to get you your 3rd out.  But if you're smart enough to recognize (or be told) that this isn't the case, you're usually better off with the cojones to leave your guy in there even though he loaded the bases instead of wasting a bullpen arm that you can save for later, or better yet tomorrow.  Then after that it's practical baseball knowledge.
2/21/2014 7:35 PM
MikeT23
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OK.  I'll try it this way as I've argued many times that Dubya finishing his story time with 1st graders wasn't an indication of incompetence when the towers went down.  Presidents aren't required to make split second decisions like QBs are.

Different jobs require different skills.   Jeter. before the pitch, undoubtedly went thru as many scenarios as possible.  I sincerely doubt, and I don't think you'll disagree, that he ran that play thru his mind.   It was a split second decision based on what he saw happening.   That is not a call a manager makes.

On the field, athletes make decisions on the fly based on what they're seeing.  The good ones make the right one more often than not.   In the dugout, they're setting up the play before it happens.  Once it starts happening, they cannot influence the outcome.   "The flip" was an on field decision not a dugout decision.

Now this goes back to what I said about SS having a better understanding of the game than any other player bar the C.   IMO, the SS has to know what everyone else is doing in order to know what he should do.   He has to process what the others are doing, right or wrong, and then make his decision on what he needs to do.   So I think most SS would be good managers because of that.   But that one specific play, when the fundamentals broke down, isn't an indication that he'd be a good one.
2/21/2014 8:31 PM
MikeT23
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FWIW, I think you fell into the "Show me some proof!!!" trap that tec got tied up in with Ripken hurting the team.   tec picked an 0-3 day and was soundly blasted for it.   You're picking one play and saying "This one".   It's not one play, it's a career of making right plays.

2/21/2014 8:37 PM
dahsdebater
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I completely agree with that, I just cited it as an example.
2/21/2014 11:44 PM
bad_luck
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I think the most important trait a manager can have is the ability to handle all of the personalities in the clubhouse. Strategy and decision making are really secondary. I don't know if Ripken and Jeter would be good at that. They both (for good reason) have massive egos. They'd have to learn to put their egos aside to manage effectively.
2/22/2014 10:36 AM
Jtpsops
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Posted by tecwrg on 2/20/2014 2:12:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Jtpsops on 2/20/2014 1:52:00 PM (view original):
Posted by seamar_116 on 2/16/2014 8:55:00 AM (view original):
Is that what I said? Do you understand how baseball works?  So by your reasoning, any day that Ruth or Mantle or Cobb didn't get a hit is a day that their team would have been better off with them not playing? Are you sure you want to go there?

Thank you Capt. Clairvoyant for knowing which players to play which days. I am surprised that you are not a major league manager. You would be the highest paid one in history and a lock for the HOF. You have missed your calling!
Here you go, tec. And I asked you the same thing about Cabrera in one of my posts.

You're an idiot if you look back at the end of every game and say 'Player X had an 0-fer? What a selfish *****! Manager definitely should have benched him for this one!"

But I'll rephrase my earlier question, since you're so "simple": give me one example when a manager writing Ripken's name in the lineup BEFORE THE GAME STARTED was a bad decision for the team given who they had on the bench to take his place.
Cal Ripken: selfish *****.
Ya, you're right. Any player that actually wants to go out on the field and play everyday is so selfish. And yet other players get ridiculed if they take themselves out of the lineup for some reason.

If his coaches didn't have the balls to bench him, that doesn't make him selfish. It makes them *******. What we do know is that when a better player showed up, Ripken switched positions voluntarily. When Jeter does that, I'll stop hating his me-first pansy ***.
2/22/2014 11:23 PM
Jtpsops
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Posted by dahsdebater on 2/21/2014 6:04:00 PM (view original):
Posted by trsnoke on 2/21/2014 4:30:00 PM (view original):
I'm just curious here, not trying to pick a fight, but why do you think they "know the game better than almost any of their contemporaries" - because of their success?
I would say it's more of a general approach to the game than success that I'm looking at.  Adam Jones is fairly successful, but I don't think he understands the game well at all.  John McDonald and Brian Schneider would both be excellent examples of guys who I think have a very solid understanding of the game but never had the talent to be very successful.

Jeter has adapted his offensive gameplan to stay relevant as his swing and his legs have slowed down.  He's always had a great approach at the plate and on the basepaths.  But lots of guys run the bases well.  Where I think you really see it is on defense.  Jeter's defensive positioning has been questioned by several people in this thread, yourself included.  But his ability to make good decisions after the ball comes off the bat is undeniable.  The most famous defensive play of his life is a prime example.  He was "way out of position" on that play; certainly no book on baseball in the world would have told him to be where he was on the field.  Some of his critics have actually criticized him for being out of position.  But realistically, he was the only place he could have been where he would have an opportunity to have an impact on the result of that game.  That's pure baseball instinct right there, the ability to make split-second decisions that will help your team win games.  And you can't do that without understanding the game.
I really hope you're not talking about the flip. That is the most overrated play in baseball history. Watch the throw - it's coming right down the line towards the catcher. Jeter intercepts it, his momentum takes him into foul territory, and he flips it back. It would have gotten to the plate if he'd just left it alone.

It's like Machado last year. Fantastic throw at Yankee Stadium, but dismissed by some because he booted it into foul territory to begin with. Same with Jeter - he set himself up for a great play. Therefore it's no longer a great play.
2/22/2014 11:25 PM
rsp777
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RIPKEN > JETER = CASE CLOSED!!!
2/23/2014 1:12 AM
tecwrg
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Posted by Jtpsops on 2/22/2014 11:25:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dahsdebater on 2/21/2014 6:04:00 PM (view original):
Posted by trsnoke on 2/21/2014 4:30:00 PM (view original):
I'm just curious here, not trying to pick a fight, but why do you think they "know the game better than almost any of their contemporaries" - because of their success?
I would say it's more of a general approach to the game than success that I'm looking at.  Adam Jones is fairly successful, but I don't think he understands the game well at all.  John McDonald and Brian Schneider would both be excellent examples of guys who I think have a very solid understanding of the game but never had the talent to be very successful.

Jeter has adapted his offensive gameplan to stay relevant as his swing and his legs have slowed down.  He's always had a great approach at the plate and on the basepaths.  But lots of guys run the bases well.  Where I think you really see it is on defense.  Jeter's defensive positioning has been questioned by several people in this thread, yourself included.  But his ability to make good decisions after the ball comes off the bat is undeniable.  The most famous defensive play of his life is a prime example.  He was "way out of position" on that play; certainly no book on baseball in the world would have told him to be where he was on the field.  Some of his critics have actually criticized him for being out of position.  But realistically, he was the only place he could have been where he would have an opportunity to have an impact on the result of that game.  That's pure baseball instinct right there, the ability to make split-second decisions that will help your team win games.  And you can't do that without understanding the game.
I really hope you're not talking about the flip. That is the most overrated play in baseball history. Watch the throw - it's coming right down the line towards the catcher. Jeter intercepts it, his momentum takes him into foul territory, and he flips it back. It would have gotten to the plate if he'd just left it alone.

It's like Machado last year. Fantastic throw at Yankee Stadium, but dismissed by some because he booted it into foul territory to begin with. Same with Jeter - he set himself up for a great play. Therefore it's no longer a great play.

The ball may have been coming down the line, but it was slowing down.  Had Jeter not touched it, it would have been rolling by the time it got to Posada.  He would have had to reach out, pick it up, turn, and then try to apply the tag to Giambi.  No way he would have been able to do that before Giambi crossed the plate.  Jeter's flip made that play happen.

Ripken would have been standing in the middle of the infield with his thumb up his ***.  Jeter's hustle made the play happen and saved the game.

2/23/2014 7:34 AM
tecwrg
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Posted by Jtpsops on 2/22/2014 11:23:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 2/20/2014 2:12:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Jtpsops on 2/20/2014 1:52:00 PM (view original):
Posted by seamar_116 on 2/16/2014 8:55:00 AM (view original):
Is that what I said? Do you understand how baseball works?  So by your reasoning, any day that Ruth or Mantle or Cobb didn't get a hit is a day that their team would have been better off with them not playing? Are you sure you want to go there?

Thank you Capt. Clairvoyant for knowing which players to play which days. I am surprised that you are not a major league manager. You would be the highest paid one in history and a lock for the HOF. You have missed your calling!
Here you go, tec. And I asked you the same thing about Cabrera in one of my posts.

You're an idiot if you look back at the end of every game and say 'Player X had an 0-fer? What a selfish *****! Manager definitely should have benched him for this one!"

But I'll rephrase my earlier question, since you're so "simple": give me one example when a manager writing Ripken's name in the lineup BEFORE THE GAME STARTED was a bad decision for the team given who they had on the bench to take his place.
Cal Ripken: selfish *****.
Ya, you're right. Any player that actually wants to go out on the field and play everyday is so selfish. And yet other players get ridiculed if they take themselves out of the lineup for some reason.

If his coaches didn't have the balls to bench him, that doesn't make him selfish. It makes them *******. What we do know is that when a better player showed up, Ripken switched positions voluntarily. When Jeter does that, I'll stop hating his me-first pansy ***.
So Cal "The Team Comes First" Ripken not volunteering to sit when management wants him to sit is to be commended, yet Derek "Mr. Me" Jeter not volunteering to move when nobody in management has indicated that they want or expect him to move is completely selfish.

No, no double-standard there in your assessment of the situation there.  Not at all.
2/23/2014 7:40 AM
MikeT23
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LOL@jtpops extra load of dumbassery on a Saturday night.    Gravity and physics elude him.    As does common sense.
2/23/2014 8:19 AM
tecwrg
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Question for jt: why are outfielders, starting all the way back in Little League, instructed to "hit the cutoff man"?  Is it for aesthetic purposes only, or is there a fundamental baseball reason why they might want to do it?
2/23/2014 11:22 AM
Jtpsops
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If you can't see the difference between a man who's paid to play baseball wanting to "show up at the office" everyday and do his job, and a guy who knows what a weak defender he is and still refuses to step aside for a better player, there's really not much left to say.

FWIW - the article you posted had to do with managers wanting to bench Ripken because they felt the attention the streak was getting was becoming a distraction. Nowhere does it say they wanted to bench him because his playing ability was a detriment to the team.

Typical MikeT-esque smokescreen. What's funny is that tec doesn't even realize that Mikey has turned him into his ***** clone. ALL HAIL TecT23!!
2/23/2014 1:01 PM
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