Rule (b),(1) disallows an RBI as a result of a double play. However I am not assuming the team would have turned a DP, I am stating double play depth de facto concedes the run. Rule (a), (3) uses the term "ordinarily" in the same manner as the term "routinely", such as a dropped deep fly ball in which, barring the runner doesn't fall down, he would ordinarily or routinely score. It is a stretch to assume a 2B at "double play depth" would attempt to nail the runner at the plate, otherwise why be at DP depth in the first place? I am not saying that a one hop rocket might not induce a 2B to try and get the runner at home, but in the initial post it simply says "ground ball to second".

Conceding the run, which we assume the team is doing by playing at DP depth, would in no way whatsoever discredit an RBI.

Think of another scenario: same situation, 2Bman fields cleanly, throws to second for the force, but the batter beats the throw at first (ie, DP is not turned). The team still conceded the run for a DP opportunity (by playing at DP depth), but the batter is absolutely credited with an RBI.

Your argument would logically have to cover not crediting an RBI in the above scenario, since it is based on concession of the run.

Interesting opinions on both sides ... 

Ive never been an official score keeper , but I still maintain that with the infield at double play depth the fielders
ARE conceding the run and the RBI.It would be the same if there was a runner at 3rd and less than 2 out ,
infield playing back , and the 2nd baseman boots the ball. Run was going to score error or not... thus an rbi. 

The only difference in my situation was there MIGHT be a double play ... which by rule?  can not be assumed.
So RBI is credited.  The only chance of an error AND no rbi is if the first baseman drops the throw to complete
the double play ... THIS error I believe removes the rbi .


Now in real life , say the situation was the same...infield back at double pay depth and the ball is chopped
over the head of the pitcher ,  second baseman charges and quickly decides to go home...and boots the
ball ,AND in opinion of the official scorer WOULD HAVE had the out at home.   Then I can see not giving
the batter the rbi .  But We can not  see this in WIS , so one can only go by the basics ...and that is an second
baseman fielding the ball with the intentions of turning two ( infield at double play depth )

The only way not to give an RBI is if there was a reasonable chance of the 2Bman throwing out the runner at home. I personally think this sums it up better than anything said to the contrary:

""(a) (3) when, before two are out, an error is made on a play on which a runner from third base ordinarily would score."

By that rule, an RBI should be credited. It doesn't say if the run would normally score & the batter would ordinarily get an RBI. It simply says if the run would normally score. A groundball hit to a second baseman playing at double play depth with the bases loaded, no out, is a play that ordinarily yields a run. Therefore, an RBI is credited."

It's a literal interpretation of the rule, and does not bring in any vague things such as 'defensive indifference,' concession of a run, etc. No argument I've seen against the RBI comes anywhere close to superseding it.

Who told you that there is no RBI? Is it from a simleague boxscore? I still think it's wrong.

linkdskn 
" Who told you that there is no RBI? Is it from a simleague boxscore? I still think it's wrong."

I sent in a ticket and this was the response :

 "This was correctly scored. A batter does not receive credit for an RBI when runs score on an error,
unless it's determined that a run would have scored even if the fielder had not made a mistake." 


It is not that big of a deal , however I am very surprised with this ruling , of course I disagree 100 %   ...:)  
It makes me wonder what else is being scored incorrectly .

The statement  " unless its determined that a run would have score even if the fielder had not made a mistake " 
is confusing to me .  Just how were they able to determine the run would not have scored ?   He HAD to score
being forced to go home.... lol .  Plus lets just assume there were other factors involved ...  Obviously we cant
watch the replay .... lol.   The only determining factors in this WIS play are infield position and description of play.
Now if it said the batter hit " a chopper over the pitchers head " or " a slow roller just past the pitcher "  THEN you
MIGHT be able to convince me that the second baseman in " DP depth "  MAY have changed his mind and went
for the play at the plate... making an error ... AND in the opinion of the official scorer WOULD HAVE  had the runner
at home.  However this is a super stretch of reality there is no way in my mind I can conceive of this ever happening
in real life.  Unless you had a super slow runner at third , or maybe the runner forgot he had to run ...lol. Or a lne
drive deflected by the pitcher - runner at third freezes - 2nd baseman charges in for the deflections ..and decides
at that point to throw home.  But in  99.99999 % cases there is no way this ever happens . Ive seen this play
more than a few times in real life , it is an rbi. No doubt in my mind .   I thank everyone for their opinions.


 

 

Ask them exactly what criteria they used to determine why the run wouldn't have scored, which they did, because no RBI was credited. Reiterate the DP depth, etc. There are flaws in logic & scoring in the sim, and they are open to changing them when they're pointed out. They generally give a brush-off response or two, but once you actually get them to think about it, they will fix existing flaws.

I did . Seems easy enough ... infield DP depth + bases loaded + groundball to SS or 2B = RBI unless DP or FC-e3 on throw ... :)

It seems that the "official scorer" in this case made the assumption that the secondbaseman would have indeed thrown home and successfully forced out the runner lumbering in.  It the assumption was made that the secondbaseman was throwing to the SS, then the rbi would count.

I wonder if this situation ALWAYS results in no rbi (which assumes the secondbaseman would ALWAYS throw home in this situation, or it there are time when an RBI is credited and times when it is not.  It would seem out of the realm of possibility that ALL ground balls to second with bases loaded and no outs would result in a throw home.

The above arguments seem to assume that if the batter puts the ball in play in this scenario he gets an RBI.  Forgetting all the "if's", the batter does not get an RBI because of the error, period.  An example I pointed out in an earlier post crediting the batter with an RBI even though there was an error on the play, would be a dropped deep fly ball in which the batter would have "ordinarily" scored on a tag up.

Posted by teaparty on 1/18/2011 5:48:00 AM (view original):
It seems that the "official scorer" in this case made the assumption that the secondbaseman would have indeed thrown home and successfully forced out the runner lumbering in.  It the assumption was made that the secondbaseman was throwing to the SS, then the rbi would count.

I wonder if this situation ALWAYS results in no rbi (which assumes the secondbaseman would ALWAYS throw home in this situation, or it there are time when an RBI is credited and times when it is not.  It would seem out of the realm of possibility that ALL ground balls to second with bases loaded and no outs would result in a throw home.

To make a decision to decide whether of not to credit an rbi  , one can only look at the set variables as obviously we cant watch the play .
So being that the infield is at double play depth the assumption has to be they are trying to turn two. Like I said in my post above , there
are ways in which a second baseman would maybe change his mind and charge and go for the play at the plate ... but we cant see that
in WIS .  If the description of the play were to say something different , like maybe ... deflected off the pitchers glove ...second baseman charges....
something like that than maybe you can say he would have gone home .... but after all that you have to assume the runner at third would score
anyways being forced to run on contact . Unlesss he is real slow or had to hold u because of a line drive or something. 

So no , there can not be an assumption by our official scorer in this case ..if the infield is in double play depth with a ground ball to short or second ,
an an error is made , an rbi has to be credited . 

Posted by napolean on 1/18/2011 11:19:00 AM (view original):
The above arguments seem to assume that if the batter puts the ball in play in this scenario he gets an RBI.  Forgetting all the "if's", the batter does not get an RBI because of the error, period.  An example I pointed out in an earlier post crediting the batter with an RBI even though there was an error on the play, would be a dropped deep fly ball in which the batter would have "ordinarily" scored on a tag up.

Yes , with the infield at double play depth and an error is made either by the second baseman or shortstop an RBI is credited ... everytime.
If the infield is " in " or at regular position than there would be a choice to be made by the " official scorer " .   There is no way to "see " if the
second baseman was setting up to throw home or throwing to second  ,or even maybe he never got that chance and bobbled the ball before 
even making that decIsion as to what base to throw to .....   we only have the set variable of  " infield at DP depth " and error committed .
Talking to WIS they have agree there is a " bug " in the way it is called and should be / was credited with an rbi.   

Rule 10.04 (a) (1) "unaided by an error"......Seems pretty clear.

lol

not " aided "  by error .... run was scoring regardless .   And with the know WIS variables ... infield at dp depth , there is no .." he might have thrown home " ...

RBI  :)

Posted by napolean on 1/23/2011 3:06:00 PM (view original):
Rule 10.04 (a) (1) "unaided by an error"......Seems pretty clear.

lol @ the fact u didnt mention the rest of the rule .  ..... " AND as part of a play begun by the batters safe hit "  

no safe hit ...error and rbi :)


0.04 Runs Batted In
A run batted in is a statistic credited to a batter whose action at bat causes one or more runs to score, as set forth in this Rule 10.04.
(a) The official scorer shall credit the batter with a run batted in for every run that scores
(1) unaided by an error and as part of a play begun by the batter's safe hi