Credit an Rbi ? I think so. Topic

ballhawknet
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Bases loaded no one out. 

Infield at double play depth

Ground ball to second ... fielder boots it for an error . 

Since you cant assume a double play ... an rbi is credited .Seems like a basic ruling.   I was told no rbi.

If the infield was in or regular depth I guess you could say the fielder could/would throw home.

But at double play depth this seems like an easy ruling.


what do you think ?




1/4/2011 4:23 PM
inkdskn
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I would score it FC, E4, RBI, but I guess I'm not 100% sure that's correct. FC, E4, no RBI seems like the scorer is assuming the fielder would throw home... I'm not sure a scorer can assume that, especially since the infield wasn't in.
1/4/2011 5:13 PM
napolean
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If the field is at double play depth, and a double play had in fact occurred, there is no RBI.  If however the batter had beaten the throw (hypothetically to first) the batter is credited with an RBI. The fact that a fielder committed an error allowing the run to score, there is no RBI in any instance. Another example, if the batter had singled to left  the runner on third scores, the fielder throws the ball into the stands and another run scores, the batter is credited with only one RBI.
1/4/2011 9:50 PM (edited)
redwingscup
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"The fact that a fielder committed an error allowing the run to score, there is no RBI in any instance"... 

I agree with nap's postion here.
1/4/2011 9:57 PM
inkdskn
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That's wrong. The only way a run wouldn't have scored, RBI or not, is if the fielder threw home. The error did not allow the run to score. I do not believe the scorer can assume the fielder would have thrown home (hence the term, fielder's choice).
1/4/2011 10:03 PM
skunk206
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Here's the RBI rules from mlb.com (http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official_rules/official_scorer_10.jsp):

10.04 Runs Batted In
A run batted in is a statistic credited to a batter whose action at bat causes one or more runs to score, as set forth in this Rule 10.04.
(a) The official scorer shall credit the batter with a run batted in for every run that scores
(1) unaided by an error and as part of a play begun by the batter's safe hit (including the batter’s home run), sacrifice bunt, sacrifice fly, infield out or fielder's choice, unless Rule 10.04(b) applies;
(2) by reason of the batter becoming a runner with the bases full (because of a base on balls, an award of first base for being touched by a pitched ball or for interference or obstruction); or
(3) when, before two are out, an error is made on a play on which a runner from third base ordinarily would score.
(b) The official scorer shall not credit a run batted in
(1) when the batter grounds into a force double play or a reverse-force double play; or
(2) when a fielder is charged with an error because the fielder muffs a throw at first base that would have completed a force double play.
(c) The official scorer's judgment must determine whether a run batted in shall be credited for a run that scores when a fielder holds the ball or throws to a wrong base. Ordinarily, if the runner keeps going, the official scorer should credit a run batted in; if the runner stops and takes off again when the runner notices the misplay, the official scorer should credit the run as scored on a fielder's choice.

1/4/2011 10:11 PM
napolean
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10.04 (a),(3) Dropped deep fly ball, runner ordinarily scores from third with less than 2 outs, credit RBI.
1/4/2011 11:12 PM
rbow923
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The scorer isn't required to guess where the fielder would have thrown. all he needs to know is that the fielder had the option of throwing home until he booted the ball. If he made an error while turning toward second I'd credit the rbi, but if he makes the error while his options are still open then no rbi.
there's an irony here, the scorer cant assume a double play but you're asking that he assume a double play would've been attempted. In the alternate universe of the scorers mind he'd be assuming the fielder attempts something that cant possibly succeed.
1/5/2011 2:06 AM (edited)
inkdskn
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The only way to not credit an RBI is if, in the scorer's mind, the run only scored because the grounder was mishandled. A scorer would only rule that in particular instances--a one-hop smash right at a drawn-in second baseman, for example; a play where nearly anyone watching the game would agree that the runner at third would have been out at the plate.

However, since the middle infield was back, and shaded toward second base (double play depth), it is quite unreasonable to expect a second baseman fielding an ordinary groundball to throw home. He would either attempt a DP, get the force at second, or throw the batter out at first (if the ball was hit toward the RF hole, for example). You don't have to assume a DP, or assume that the team would attempt one. I see the 'irony' you're getting at, but you're taking it a step too far... all you assume is that the second baseman would have thrown to second or first, and you make that assumption based on where he was playing, and where the ball was hit. Nothing more, nothing less.
1/5/2011 2:41 AM
rbow923
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ok I wasnt assuming the runner would beat the throw home. that would be up to the scorers judgement and unfortunately there is no consistancy between scorers as each has their own standards of judgement. I don't agree that the outcome must be obvious, I thought the criterion was that the play has a reasonable chance of success for a typical fielder.

1/5/2011 3:01 AM (edited)
inkdskn
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...and I claim that it is unreasonable to assume a decent chance of success simply because the fielder was playing at double-play depth. It's definitely a judgment call, and is influenced by other factors not mentioned here, such as whether the pitcher throwing from the windup or from the stretch (influencing the runner's lead), the speed of the runner at 3B (Bream or Henderson?), where exactly the ball was hit, etc.

It seems highly unlikely to me that a scorer would assume a high chance of success for a force out on a long throw to the plate, given where the second baseman was playing. And that, as I see it, is the only way not to credit an RBI.
1/5/2011 2:57 AM
inkdskn
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I do agree that the play at the plate having 'a reasonable chance at success' would be the determining factor; I just don't think a scorer would see it as having much chance in this scenario.
1/5/2011 3:01 AM
napolean
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Having done my share of scoring, I can assure you if the infield is at double play depth, error or not, the batter is not going to get an RBI. In this particular scenario it becomes a sighted form of "defensive indifference" since double play depth was established. The error precludes any chance of an RBI, no arguments would be valid to credit the batter with such.
1/5/2011 12:02 PM
inkdskn
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Napolean, it seems that you are assuming the team would turn a DP, which is not allowed.

Please explain your decision not to credit an RBI using the rules posted above for determining if an RBI should be credited. Be specific--which rules(s) are you using?

I still maintain that it's a judgment call, and that no MLB scorer would refuse to credit an RBI.
1/5/2011 2:44 PM
inkdskn
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"(a) (3) when, before two are out, an error is made on a play on which a runner from third base ordinarily would score."

By that rule, an RBI should be credited. It doesn't say if the run would normally score & the batter would ordinarily get an RBI. It simply says if the run would normally score. A groundball hit to a second baseman playing at double play depth with the bases loaded, no out, is a play that ordinarily yields a run. Therefore, an RBI is credited.
1/5/2011 2:47 PM
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