Again, not turning the ball over is a big deal.  That plays a part in Miami having 15 and not 28.    Did Fox protect him by essentially shutting down the offense?  I imagine he did.  Of course, it's the coach's job to put his players in a position to succeed.   That's really his only job.  And, at the end of the day, Tebow and the Broncos were successful.

Of course, it's the coach's job to put his players in a position to succeed.   That's really his only job.  And, at the end of the day, Tebow and the Broncos were successful.

You said that.  And I agree.  100%.

However, I dont think being down 15-0 with the ball on my 23 yard line with 5:23 to go and a QB who to that point is 4/13 for 40 yards is in a good position to succeed.  Did they manage to succeed despite being in that predicament?  Yes.  But that doesnt mean that they want to be down 15 with 5 minutes to go most of the time.  because most of the time, you wont win those games.

Posted by Jtpsops on 10/24/2011 2:28:00 PM (view original):
I see your points E, but it's apples and oranges. Tebow turned a sure sack at his 1 into a 20 yard gain.  Orton may have been safetied on that play.  He brings a different dynamic.

And we all agree Tebow's passing needs work.  4/13 going into the fourth isn't good, but it's also hard to get into a rhythm with such few pass attempts.  He won't be an Elway, but he'll improve.

Just saw this play on a replay.  Great run, but the ball was snapped at the 15.   The only reason a safety was in play was because Tebow was in the game and he turned and ran 5 yards straight towards his own end zone in his initial attempt to escape.  Orton may take a sack, but I don't think he's getting anywhere near the end zone.

E...you clearly said "But I cant see ANY situation where Kyle Orton would not have had the Broncos in a better position to have won that game."

I just gave you one of several examples. Tebow turned a couple of potentially damning sacks into big gains with his legs. Orton doesn't do that. And as Mike said, no turnovers for Tebow. I guarantee on some of those 7 sacks, Orton gets rid of the ball too early or throws one up - most incompletions, but probably one or two picks.

Orton might have put up "prettier" passing numbers, but you can't say with any certainty he would have had them in a better position to win that game.

And PS: Orton's numbers the last few games were pretty ugly. He just racks up more yards because he throws a better deep ball than Tebow

Posted by eschwartz67 on 10/24/2011 5:09:00 PM (view original):
Of course, it's the coach's job to put his players in a position to succeed.   That's really his only job.  And, at the end of the day, Tebow and the Broncos were successful.

You said that.  And I agree.  100%.

However, I dont think being down 15-0 with the ball on my 23 yard line with 5:23 to go and a QB who to that point is 4/13 for 40 yards is in a good position to succeed.  Did they manage to succeed despite being in that predicament?  Yes.  But that doesnt mean that they want to be down 15 with 5 minutes to go most of the time.  because most of the time, you wont win those games.

As I understand it, Prater missed two FG.  That's 15-6.   Denver ran the ball about 40 times.  With 13 pass attempts with 5 minutes to go and a goose egg on the board, I'd say the ultraconservative Fox played the game exactly how he wanted to play it.   Maybe completing 4 of 13 convinced Fox to keep it conservative.  Maybe Tebow knows about 40% of the playbook.  We don't know but the coach ran his game(I'm sure Tebow wasn't calling his own plays).

I can't stress enough the no turnover part of the game.  To me, that was Tebow's greatest accomplishment. 

Agreed. And I guarantee it's an accomplishment Orton doesn't match facing that kind of pressure (and without Brandon Lloyd).

Honestly, I think we're on the same page about Tebow.    We're never going to see 23/31, 309 yards and 3 TD from him.   That's not his game.  But, if he can make a few plays per game, without turning the ball over, he can be a successful QB.    Unfortunately, for him, I think he's going to throw some INT when he's more confident with his passing. 

Look..... the bottom line is Prater DID miss those kicks.  So, they were down 15-0.  In fact they were the FIRST TEAM SINCE THE MERGER TO WIN after being down 15 points with 3 minutes or less to go.  So, that not only isnt a GOOD position to win...  but an UNPRECEDENTED position to win.  And I cant believe that I AGREE with what Trent Dilfer just said.

He basically said no one will change their opinion on Tebow.  Anyone thinking he will never be a great QB will never look past the first 3 quarters where the QB play was so atrocious they will never give him credit.  And his apologists will say that the last 5 minutes are all he is about.  He finds ways to win.

Tebow is garbage.  He's a lefty VY with far less physical ability.

LOOK.....do you think any team gameplans to be down by 15 at any point in the game????  REALLY????   FOX RAN HIS GODDAM GAMEPLAN, TEBOW EXECUTED IT TO THE BEST OF HIS ABILITY AND THE BRONCOS WON!!!!  Yammer on about the first 55 minutes.   I can just about guarantee you that Tebow would have liked to have had more passes thrown but I can also guarantee you he wasn't going to change plays in the huddle so he could accomplish that.   Fox called the game and Tebow had 13 opportunites to complete a pass in the first 55 minutes.   What part of that is escaping you?

No Mike.  Of couse no one gameplans to be down 15 with 3 minutes left.  But with the wondrous play of Tebow to that point....  thats where Denver was. 

You have brought up Fox's play calling....  lets take a good look at that.  He likely knows Tebow's abilities better than you or I.  And in a game that he was losing for almost the whole game, he let his QB throw 13 times through the first 55 minutes.  Thats not a ringing endorsement from your coach. 

Now I am asking you this one last question....  You are an Oakland Raider fan, and have said that you would have loved a turnover free performance from your QB Sunday.  And I agree that it would have been a major improvement over what Oakland got.  Here is my question.  With a full week of practice under his belt going into next week...  Would you rather have Carson Palmer at the helm or Tim Tebow with a whole season of being in the Raider system?

Raiders are built differently.  But purely from a talent standpoint - right now, honestly, Tebow, until Palmer proves he's got something left. Would I take Tebow over, say, Cassel?  Probably not.  No one is saying that Tebow is the second coming of Marino or Elway (at least they shouldn't be), but if he is able to use the skills he does possess to put his team in a chance to win every week, why shouldn't he get credit for that?

It's like saying a pitcher who is 25-3 with a 4.25 ERA sucks.  Wins aren't everything, but if he's got 25, it means he pitches well enough every start to keep his team in a position to win.  I know many managers who will take that. Is he an ace? Certainly not, but still clearly an effective pitcher. (And no, I'm not saying Tebow's 25-3, but point is, one or two stats don't always tell the whole story).

And again, as for the 15-0 deficit - guess what? The WHOLE TEAM had them in that hole, including Prater - not just Tebow.  But when they went all in for that last 5 minutes and beyond, guess what? Tebow and the boys got it done.  Hopefully that encourages Fox to take a few more chances.  If you ask me, the Broncos defense was awesome yesterday - they won that game.  But Tebow managed it well and kept the ball out of the Dolphins hands. He wasn't great by any standard, but he did the job he was asked to do and did it successfully.  In that context, he came through.

As jtpops said, being down 15-0 wasn't entirely on Tebow(much like winning wasn't entirely Tebow either).

I've said, repeatedly, that there has to be a reason for the play-callling.   I've mentioned Fox's conservative nature, his trust in Tebow and, possibly, Tebow not knowing the full playbook.  None of us know why there were 13 pass attempts for 55 minutes.  I have to believe that Tebow would have loved to have thrown the ball a few more times.  Having watched him in college, I know he wants to win. Seeing a 15 point deficit and being told to hand the ball off, again, had to be getting to him.  But he's also going to do as he's told.   If the talking heads can be believed, neither Fox nor Elway see him as the future.  The last thing he needs is one of them saying "The kid just won't call the plays we send in."

As for the Raiders, I want a QB who can throw a spiral.   To the team wearing Silver and Black.   I'm not sure Tebow or Palmer can do that right now.  Barring that, I just want them to throw the ball to the Raiders.  From what I've seen thus far, Tebow would be better at that.    If Palmer was simply rusty, I'll take Palmer.  Mostly for the same reason I didn't like Campbell.   At some point, a QB is going to have to throw the ball every play in the 2nd half for your team to have a chance to win.  At this point, that is not Tebow's game.   I don't think it ever will be.

That said, Tebow went 9 for 14 over the last 5 minutes.  Maybe, when unleashed, he can throw the ball around the field.

Couldn't it be that he was nervous in his first NFL start, in front of a fan base that had great expectations for him, and it took a long time for him to finally get comfortable?

Getting no protection from his o-line can't help in that regard either.

Fact is, he looked really really good on those last two drives.

Composure is important.
No interceptions is important..
Game management is important.
Having been in championship type moments and coming through is important.

I think it is kind of silly to even try to evaluate him after one game.
Detroit is going to pose an even greater protection problem for Denver, and I suspect Denver will lose handily.

In the end I'll reserve judgement until the end of the season, and between now and then see if there is growth.