Posted by jrd_x on 5/8/2012 12:30:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 5/8/2012 12:00:00 PM (view original):
One might say he got that opportunity because nobody could ******* hit him. Discount saves altogether. Do his core stats beyond that say he was really good? I think they do.
He pitched 1360 innings. I wonder, if you took the best 1360 innings of every pitcher who threw 1360 innings since 1995 and isolated them, how many would mirror Rivera? Pedro threw about 2500. Less than double. He was pretty good, right? Take his 1100 worst innings out and see where he stands. I'm sure he'll be better but how much better?
He was very, very good. I've already said he's a Hall of Famer. What more do you want?
And to take you up on your "I wonder," from 1997-2003 Pedro threw 1408 IP, they are consecutive, I wasn't able in just a couple minutes to pick out his best 1400 innings, but his stats are:
2.20 ERA
0.94 WHIP
213 ERA+ (with a peak of 291)
11.3 K/9
0.6 HR/9
2.0 BB/9
1761 K
That's almost exactly the same as Rivera:
2.21 ERA
0.998 WHIP
206 ERA+ (with a peak of 316)
8.3 K/9
0.5 HR/9
2.0 BB/9
1119 K
I know I'm behind on this, but it looks like a lot of this thread is fluff anyways.
This comparison isn't fair at all. And while you can't predict exactly what Pedro would have done as a reliever, and what Mo would have done as a starter, it's a pretty well-known fact that pitchers will have better numbers as relievers than as a starter. Reason is that you can let your fastball go, have better break on your pitches, etc, because you only have to pitch one inning at a time. I could give several examples of this, yes, Gagne being one of them. For the Yankee fans, Hughes and Joba.
At the same time, Rivera is special for a few reasons - obviously his stuff (er..pitch) was nasty, but he also built a reputation and had a mental edge over his opponents more than most pitchers. And since he pitched for a team that was constantly in the playoffs, and was DOMINANT there, this just furthers his legacy. And yes, the rest of his team was largely responsible for getting him the opportunity to have so many appearances, but he certainly made the most of that opportunity. Appreciate Mo for what he was, and don't try to downplay his value.