I don't think there are millions. But there are enough out there to fill these worlds and then some. And when i found this game, i wasn't looking for this game. It just crossed paths with me.

My situation personally.... I've never played sim games. So to search them (at that time) wasn't even in the realm of thought. But when i found it, i loved it.

And yes i have a couple guys i thought would be interested. They signed up for a season, maybe two, and didn't continue for their own reasons. But there is still a wide gap of possibility between "millions" and my "couple people", that can be tapped into. If HD is seen by millions, and no more people join, I'll be the first to tell you that i was wrong and that mass advertisement had no effect

Posted by mullycj on 12/2/2017 3:30:00 PM (view original):
From what I remember it was something like this
D1 : no change
D2/D3 : Once you made the NT for four season your rewards would decrease such as ;
5th appearance : 90% of current rewards
6th appearance : 80% " "
7th appearance : 70% " "
8th+ appearance : 50% " "

The numbers aren't accurate but that was the jist.

I'm almost sure it was after the 4th appearance: 50%. 6th appearance: 25%.

Posted by topdogggbm on 12/2/2017 6:13:00 PM (view original):
I don't think there are millions. But there are enough out there to fill these worlds and then some. And when i found this game, i wasn't looking for this game. It just crossed paths with me.

My situation personally.... I've never played sim games. So to search them (at that time) wasn't even in the realm of thought. But when i found it, i loved it.

And yes i have a couple guys i thought would be interested. They signed up for a season, maybe two, and didn't continue for their own reasons. But there is still a wide gap of possibility between "millions" and my "couple people", that can be tapped into. If HD is seen by millions, and no more people join, I'll be the first to tell you that i was wrong and that mass advertisement had no effect

This is absolutely correct. Millions might be a bit much what certain users keep espousing is quite disingenuous and they know it but are simply too hard headed to admit it. There are like 320 million people just in the US alone. Each world has 984 teams. That's 9840 spots to be filled to have each world at 100% capacity. You really don't think with proper advertising that WiS couldn't reach those "niche" 10,000 users. And that's assuming, of course, that every user only has a single team.

For argument's sake, let's say each user coaches 2 teams. 5000 users, 5000. Out of a world population of 7+ billion. Is the game REALLY "too niche" to attract roughly 5000 people if it were properly advertised?

Posted by emy1013 on 12/2/2017 9:35:00 PM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 12/2/2017 6:13:00 PM (view original):
I don't think there are millions. But there are enough out there to fill these worlds and then some. And when i found this game, i wasn't looking for this game. It just crossed paths with me.

My situation personally.... I've never played sim games. So to search them (at that time) wasn't even in the realm of thought. But when i found it, i loved it.

And yes i have a couple guys i thought would be interested. They signed up for a season, maybe two, and didn't continue for their own reasons. But there is still a wide gap of possibility between "millions" and my "couple people", that can be tapped into. If HD is seen by millions, and no more people join, I'll be the first to tell you that i was wrong and that mass advertisement had no effect

This is absolutely correct. Millions might be a bit much what certain users keep espousing is quite disingenuous and they know it but are simply too hard headed to admit it. There are like 320 million people just in the US alone. Each world has 984 teams. That's 9840 spots to be filled to have each world at 100% capacity. You really don't think with proper advertising that WiS couldn't reach those "niche" 10,000 users. And that's assuming, of course, that every user only has a single team.

For argument's sake, let's say each user coaches 2 teams. 5000 users, 5000. Out of a world population of 7+ billion. Is the game REALLY "too niche" to attract roughly 5000 people if it were properly advertised?

Emy is right 99/100 times on the forums.

I'd say more like 98.735612%. I thought I was wrong once but I was mistaken.

Well its because i was right the rest of that .264388%. Since i wrote the first part.

Emy is right from from time to time. Not this time, not remotely.

First of all, I agree that in the previous version , D2 was better, by far, than D1. Which is absurd, and an embarrassment if you’re the game developer. So emy saying that he doesn’t care about the name on the header, it all reads Duke to him, may be true, but it’s because he was conditioned to play that way because D1 was unplayable for so many of us. In any case, it’s certainly not the set of expectations that the vast majority of potential users come in with. I think most understand that they may not get to coach their team anytime soon, but most reasonably expect that they should be able to coach at that kind of level.

And yeah. It’s a niche game. It’s not EA Sports or fantasy football. It is a fantasy coaching and recruiting simulation. There are no graphics and no dunks, no games to watch, no real life players or teams to cheer for. They need to find and market to attract the right new users, not change the game in the ways that it would take to actually attract “millions” of users. It’s complicated, and there’s a learning curve, and it’s a better game because of it. It’s also a niche game because of it.

There is no way you’re going to keep any world anywhere near 100% filled long term. User satisfaction won’t be high enough. It works - kind of - in HBD, because when your team is on the down cycle, the bottom teams have special access to the top commodities via draft. The opposite is true in HD, so rebuilding relies on geographic recruiting elbow room, and an ability to punch up and pull down talent from better teams. If a player doesn’t feel like s/he can compete in a reasonable amount of time, they’re not likely to stick around.

I don't know how much one commercial costs to put on during the NCAA tournament. I'm sure it's not cheap. But 1 single commercial for 30 seconds could catch some eyes

Posted by topdogggbm on 12/2/2017 11:08:00 PM (view original):
I don't know how much one commercial costs to put on during the NCAA tournament. I'm sure it's not cheap. But 1 single commercial for 30 seconds could catch some eyes

That’s the perennial suggestion, and it’s not a bad one, in theory. But it’d be a whole lot more attractive to Joe Nacho watching the Sweet 16 If, when he saw the spot and plunked out the address on his browser, he didn’t have to start at D3 Podunk U. He wants to coach Syracuse, and if he can’t coach Cuse, maybe he’ll settle for coaching against them at Rutgers, or hell at Niagra. But say he takes the leap and signs up for a season at Podunk U and then realizes that he won’t even be able to coach Niagra for a handful of seasons, and a ~$75+ investment.

So we’re full circle back to the OP. Getting Joe Nacho, who should be a potential customer because he’s somewhat interested in dynasty games and loves college basketball, getting him to give it a try and to stick around is why we’re talking about the benefits of ditching the forced stratification model, that may milk the hardcore nerds out of more money, but almost certainly turns away far more potential users.

And by the way, admitting that this is a niche game doesn’t mean it can’t attract 10000 users. I think it can. Just not with the current 10 worlds. You’d need at least double, probably triple the worlds to keep 10000 users happy playing a competitive commodities game.

Posted by shoe3 on 12/2/2017 11:22:00 PM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 12/2/2017 11:08:00 PM (view original):
I don't know how much one commercial costs to put on during the NCAA tournament. I'm sure it's not cheap. But 1 single commercial for 30 seconds could catch some eyes

That’s the perennial suggestion, and it’s not a bad one, in theory. But it’d be a whole lot more attractive to Joe Nacho watching the Sweet 16 If, when he saw the spot and plunked out the address on his browser, he didn’t have to start at D3 Podunk U. He wants to coach Syracuse, and if he can’t coach Cuse, maybe he’ll settle for coaching against them at Rutgers, or hell at Niagra. But say he takes the leap and signs up for a season at Podunk U and then realizes that he won’t even be able to coach Niagra for a handful of seasons, and a ~$75+ investment.

So we’re full circle back to the OP. Getting Joe Nacho, who should be a potential customer because he’s somewhat interested in dynasty games and loves college basketball, getting him to give it a try and to stick around is why we’re talking about the benefits of ditching the forced stratification model, that may milk the hardcore nerds out of more money, but almost certainly turns away far more potential users.

Ahh, the Instant Gratification Generation. Big part of what's wrong with **** nowadays. I gotta have it and I gotta have it now.

Posted by shoe3 on 12/2/2017 11:10:00 PM (view original):
Emy is right from from time to time. Not this time, not remotely.

First of all, I agree that in the previous version , D2 was better, by far, than D1. Which is absurd, and an embarrassment if you’re the game developer. So emy saying that he doesn’t care about the name on the header, it all reads Duke to him, may be true, but it’s because he was conditioned to play that way because D1 was unplayable for so many of us. In any case, it’s certainly not the set of expectations that the vast majority of potential users come in with. I think most understand that they may not get to coach their team anytime soon, but most reasonably expect that they should be able to coach at that kind of level.

And yeah. It’s a niche game. It’s not EA Sports or fantasy football. It is a fantasy coaching and recruiting simulation. There are no graphics and no dunks, no games to watch, no real life players or teams to cheer for. They need to find and market to attract the right new users, not change the game in the ways that it would take to actually attract “millions” of users. It’s complicated, and there’s a learning curve, and it’s a better game because of it. It’s also a niche game because of it.

There is no way you’re going to keep any world anywhere near 100% filled long term. User satisfaction won’t be high enough. It works - kind of - in HBD, because when your team is on the down cycle, the bottom teams have special access to the top commodities via draft. The opposite is true in HD, so rebuilding relies on geographic recruiting elbow room, and an ability to punch up and pull down talent from better teams. If a player doesn’t feel like s/he can compete in a reasonable amount of time, they’re not likely to stick around.

Everyone has their own opinion I suppose. But the forums were better, coaches actually discussed strategies and asked questions without being ridiculed, the conference chat boards were far more lively, NT's didn't have multiple Sims taking up spots in every tournament all the time. etc. and so on.

How would you know that you wouldn't be able to keep worlds 100% filled? Were you even here when you had to get placed on a waiting list to get a team?

As far as recruiting relying on "geographic elbow room", well, that's the biggest load of bullshit I've read in this whole thread. Yes, coaches who restrict themselves to a small geographic area to recruit are very likely to struggle. Those are also the same coaches who are very likely to quit because they don't understand how to play the game. With preferences, limitations on HV/CV's, AP's, promises mattering more, coaches can use all kind of different methods to "punch above their weight" and recruit outside their local areas. The biggest problems I see with recruiting now is coaches at D1 schools fighting D2 (and occasionally D3 for goodness sake) schools for recruits and punching far BELOW their weight. No wonder those coaches get frustrated and quit, they rush to D1 without understanding how to play the game. And I can pretty much guarantee that a coach starting with his first team at a D1 school will suffer the same massive failures. But hey, if that's what the crowd wants and that's what WiS wants to do, more power to 'em. Won't affect me in the least because I know how to play the game in whichever direction it goes.

Posted by dcy0827 on 12/2/2017 11:40:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 12/2/2017 11:22:00 PM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 12/2/2017 11:08:00 PM (view original):
I don't know how much one commercial costs to put on during the NCAA tournament. I'm sure it's not cheap. But 1 single commercial for 30 seconds could catch some eyes

That’s the perennial suggestion, and it’s not a bad one, in theory. But it’d be a whole lot more attractive to Joe Nacho watching the Sweet 16 If, when he saw the spot and plunked out the address on his browser, he didn’t have to start at D3 Podunk U. He wants to coach Syracuse, and if he can’t coach Cuse, maybe he’ll settle for coaching against them at Rutgers, or hell at Niagra. But say he takes the leap and signs up for a season at Podunk U and then realizes that he won’t even be able to coach Niagra for a handful of seasons, and a ~$75+ investment.

So we’re full circle back to the OP. Getting Joe Nacho, who should be a potential customer because he’s somewhat interested in dynasty games and loves college basketball, getting him to give it a try and to stick around is why we’re talking about the benefits of ditching the forced stratification model, that may milk the hardcore nerds out of more money, but almost certainly turns away far more potential users.

Ahh, the Instant Gratification Generation. Big part of what's wrong with **** nowadays. I gotta have it and I gotta have it now.

That’s a bit of a cop out. I doubt 40-somethings are any more likely to want to spend a year and $75+ dollars to play the game that they intended to purchase than 20-somethings. Hell, why stop at 3 levels then? Why not make people start out coaching high school, or AAU, or church-league pick-up games. More levels, more users, more profit, right?

It isn’t about instant gratification. It’s a consumer choosing how to spend his or her entertainment dollars. You can blame millennials if you want, but you won’t get any closer to filling worlds.

Posted by emy1013 on 12/2/2017 11:55:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 12/2/2017 11:10:00 PM (view original):
Emy is right from from time to time. Not this time, not remotely.

First of all, I agree that in the previous version , D2 was better, by far, than D1. Which is absurd, and an embarrassment if you’re the game developer. So emy saying that he doesn’t care about the name on the header, it all reads Duke to him, may be true, but it’s because he was conditioned to play that way because D1 was unplayable for so many of us. In any case, it’s certainly not the set of expectations that the vast majority of potential users come in with. I think most understand that they may not get to coach their team anytime soon, but most reasonably expect that they should be able to coach at that kind of level.

And yeah. It’s a niche game. It’s not EA Sports or fantasy football. It is a fantasy coaching and recruiting simulation. There are no graphics and no dunks, no games to watch, no real life players or teams to cheer for. They need to find and market to attract the right new users, not change the game in the ways that it would take to actually attract “millions” of users. It’s complicated, and there’s a learning curve, and it’s a better game because of it. It’s also a niche game because of it.

There is no way you’re going to keep any world anywhere near 100% filled long term. User satisfaction won’t be high enough. It works - kind of - in HBD, because when your team is on the down cycle, the bottom teams have special access to the top commodities via draft. The opposite is true in HD, so rebuilding relies on geographic recruiting elbow room, and an ability to punch up and pull down talent from better teams. If a player doesn’t feel like s/he can compete in a reasonable amount of time, they’re not likely to stick around.

Everyone has their own opinion I suppose. But the forums were better, coaches actually discussed strategies and asked questions without being ridiculed, the conference chat boards were far more lively, NT's didn't have multiple Sims taking up spots in every tournament all the time. etc. and so on.

How would you know that you wouldn't be able to keep worlds 100% filled? Were you even here when you had to get placed on a waiting list to get a team?

As far as recruiting relying on "geographic elbow room", well, that's the biggest load of bullshit I've read in this whole thread. Yes, coaches who restrict themselves to a small geographic area to recruit are very likely to struggle. Those are also the same coaches who are very likely to quit because they don't understand how to play the game. With preferences, limitations on HV/CV's, AP's, promises mattering more, coaches can use all kind of different methods to "punch above their weight" and recruit outside their local areas. The biggest problems I see with recruiting now is coaches at D1 schools fighting D2 (and occasionally D3 for goodness sake) schools for recruits and punching far BELOW their weight. No wonder those coaches get frustrated and quit, they rush to D1 without understanding how to play the game. And I can pretty much guarantee that a coach starting with his first team at a D1 school will suffer the same massive failures. But hey, if that's what the crowd wants and that's what WiS wants to do, more power to 'em. Won't affect me in the least because I know how to play the game in whichever direction it goes.

A new world opening up right now would probably get pretty close to capacity, in the race to D1. As those desirable D1 jobs get locked down, attrition would set in, and eventually the world would settle somewhere near where the rest of them are now, 25-33%. That’s the current comfort level. You can make all the generational excuses you want, but that’s the collective consumers input on how full a world needs to be.

I think you can get D1 closer to 50%, especially if you tweak the cost and incentives of the different levels, and let people start above D3, as has been discussed. But all the levels aren’t getting to 50, much less close to 100, in the existing worlds. Just isn’t going to happen. Not because the game is bad, or undesirable, or not attractive to a target audience, but because it’s a competitive commodities game, and people simply aren’t going to choose to play that game if they don’t feel they have a reasonable chance to compete for valuable commodities.

Posted by shoe3 on 12/2/2017 11:58:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dcy0827 on 12/2/2017 11:40:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 12/2/2017 11:22:00 PM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 12/2/2017 11:08:00 PM (view original):
I don't know how much one commercial costs to put on during the NCAA tournament. I'm sure it's not cheap. But 1 single commercial for 30 seconds could catch some eyes

That’s the perennial suggestion, and it’s not a bad one, in theory. But it’d be a whole lot more attractive to Joe Nacho watching the Sweet 16 If, when he saw the spot and plunked out the address on his browser, he didn’t have to start at D3 Podunk U. He wants to coach Syracuse, and if he can’t coach Cuse, maybe he’ll settle for coaching against them at Rutgers, or hell at Niagra. But say he takes the leap and signs up for a season at Podunk U and then realizes that he won’t even be able to coach Niagra for a handful of seasons, and a ~$75+ investment.

So we’re full circle back to the OP. Getting Joe Nacho, who should be a potential customer because he’s somewhat interested in dynasty games and loves college basketball, getting him to give it a try and to stick around is why we’re talking about the benefits of ditching the forced stratification model, that may milk the hardcore nerds out of more money, but almost certainly turns away far more potential users.

Ahh, the Instant Gratification Generation. Big part of what's wrong with **** nowadays. I gotta have it and I gotta have it now.

That’s a bit of a cop out. I doubt 40-somethings are any more likely to want to spend a year and $75+ dollars to play the game that they intended to purchase than 20-somethings. Hell, why stop at 3 levels then? Why not make people start out coaching high school, or AAU, or church-league pick-up games. More levels, more users, more profit, right?

It isn’t about instant gratification. It’s a consumer choosing how to spend his or her entertainment dollars. You can blame millennials if you want, but you won’t get any closer to filling worlds.

Now that's where you're wrong. What's being argued and bandied about IS instant gratification. Wanting to start at the top level immediately without "putting in the time" to learn the game. Do you honestly think that those coaches have any chance whatsoever against the entrenched coaches? No. And despite Mike's attempt at showing how those coaches would never cross paths, he's wrong because I run into coaches in recruiting ALL the time who are recruiting far below the level they should.

Like I said, I could give a **** less where WiS lets coaches start. But to try to sit there and say that it's NOT about "instant gratification" (or whatever term or phrase or bullshit semantics you want to use) is simply disingenuous. The game was (and currently is) designed for coaches to start at the bottom and work their way up. You're proposing to throw away those initial steps and start at the top rung. Now how again is that not "instant"?

And of course the worlds would never fill 100%. That's because as soon as it got difficult, lots of coaches would bail because they can't stand it if they aren't winning easy. But there was a very long time when worlds were north of (or right at) 2/3's in human coaches. The current population is a joke. I would also argue that 40-somethings WOULD be more likely to stay than 20-somethings because for one, they tend to be in a more stable position in life, financially, and tend to have more time for things like HD. But that's a debate for another time. Hell, I started as a mid 30's-something and I'm still here over a decade later. Why? Because I like the game. And because the cost of a team is a very minor inconvenience to me whereas a college student or someone just beginning a career probably has less funds to put toward those teams. And because I have patience and LIKE the idea of having to start at the bottom and work my way up. Guess that puts this old man in the minority thinking these days....