Posted by zorzii on 1/31/2016 8:59:00 AM (view original):
I don't like Brady, never liked Brady, never rooted for New England, will never root for New England. But I am not going to read stuff where people compare him to Dilfer or Palmer and think these people are going logically about his achievements. You can compare him to Manning. I have sticked with the story that Manning was a better QB overall until the last SB won by Brady. Now, if Manning wins the next one, if he has a good performance, I am willing to check out the stats again.

There are two things to consider.

1) Stats
2) Overall success

I saw a lot of arguments on the teams surrounding both QB. In a 10 years span, both teams, New England and Indianapolis (Denver) had a lot of players change. So I am going to say, in the end, it evens out. Manning choked or the coach choked when Baltimore upset Denver and went out to win the SB. New England got a SB stolen from them on the Eli to helmet catch (still unbelievable to me). But they got back that SB on the bad coaching against Seattle last season. So if everything works the way it should, Manning should get his second SB in a week.

When you talk about teams surrounding a QB, I can't say I saw a better offense than the one Montana had in SF. Jerry Rice... Best WR of all time. And he had Taylor, I think.

I am being absolutely logical about Brady. That's the thing people don't like - they want to consider him great, but there are no reasons to do so from a logical perspective.

I do not consider winning the Super Bowl to be of any significance to a QB's greatness unless he clearly made difference making plays to help them win, either in that game or on the way to that game. In other words, he made plays that won games they would not have won.

Brady has NEVER done that. Every Super Bowl he's won, he has been carried there and to the win by great coaching and talented teams. This is why the Dilfer analogy is accurate.

In fact I think one of the biggest problems people have with over rating QBs is by considering playoff wins where the QB did little to make it happen, but since he was technically the QB, they give him credit. Brady is the ultimate benefactor of being carried to titles he did little to help earn.

On another thing you said...

NE never had a SB "stolen" - the opposing team just made the plays to get it done.

You really should take a new look at the Eli to Tyree catch. It's 3rd and 5 and if they don't make a play the game will soon be on the line with 4th and 5 - or worse, since Eli is about  to take a sure sack when he was surrounded by three NE rushers, dropping them back into a situation that would be terribly difficult to convert.

Instead, Eli moves forward, shakes off two defenders who each has hold of his shoulder, goes backward and to his right to avoid the rush, keeps his eyes downfield and sets his feet. He then launches an absolute rocket of a throw about 40 yards downfield, on a frozen rope to a spot where only the leaping Tyree can catch it.  Eli then gets hit by Mike Vrabel right after he throws it.

Tyree, for his part, also made a stellar play. He was shoved off his intended route, but gets open and then sets his feet and leaps and makes the catch, pinning the ball to his helmet and refusing to let Rodney Harrison take it away despite a great effort from Harrison.

That's NOT luck, that's quite simply one of the greatest clutch plays in the history of the Super Bowl, perhaps the greatest play in the history of the game.

Posted by bistiza on 1/31/2016 9:56:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MonsterTurtl on 1/30/2016 9:34:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bistiza on 1/30/2016 5:15:00 PM (view original):

Posted by The Taint on 1/30/2016 3:45:00 PM (view original):
Uhhh, you should probably check into Wilson's stretch of games this year without Lynch.  Historic numbers were put up.

In four NFL seasons, Wilson is averaging over 600 rushing yards per season. Funny, Brady doesn't do that.

He also has completed over 64 percent of his passes, while a higher percentage of his completions go for 20+ and 40+ yards than what Brady does.

Despite throwing more downfield balls, Wilson has a very low interception percentage, similar to what Brady does with shorter throws that are less likely to be intercepted.

The guy's QB rating is over 101 for his career, and 2014 was the only of his four seasons when he was under a 100 QB rating (it was still a respectable 95). Brady's career average is 96.4, and other than 2014, Wilson has had a higher rating in every year than Brady.

Brady throws for more yardage, but he also attempts about 8-10 more passes per game than Wilson.

Given the above along with Wilson's rushing yardage, scrambling ability, athleticism, elusiveness, and ability to throw while on the run, he has been a far superior QB to Brady the past four seasons, which are all we have to directly compare.

If Wilson can keep up what he's been doing for several more seasons, there is no reason to think he can't be one of, if not the very best, QB in the NFL.

Wilson is a different type of QB, that doesn't mean he's better. He is a dual threat, Brady is a pocket passer, there is something to be said for both. The majority of QBs in the NFL are pocket passers, and as I said earlier all of the best QBs are besides Big Ben, and even he isn't really dual threat. So to say Wilson is better than Brady because he can run, make athletic plays, scramble, you would also have to say he is better than everyone else because they can't do any of that either. Wilson is not as intelligent of a passer as Brady, as I have explained, he plays in a run oriented offense, he throws to his best two recievers (This year Graham, and Baldwin) the large majority of the time, and he plays against defenses that stack the box so he gets 1 on 1 coverage for his two best receivers. It's kind of hard to argue that he is as good as Brady when he throws way less passes, as you said 8-10, which makes a huge difference, it means the defense is thinking about stopping the run, there are less chances for interceptions, and there are less chances for incompletions to ruin his good QBR that you brought up, he is not relied upon to carry an offense, he probably will later in his career but not yet. Brady is relied upon to carry an offense, their run game is vertically non existent this season, don't argue with me on that I had Blount on my fantasy team. Wilson to going to be top 3 of his era I think, along with Luck, and either Newton, Tannihill, Cousins, Carr, or like Boartles or something. But he isn't in the top group just yet, for a lot of the reasons you say Brady is bad, he was carried by a STELLER defense, a great O-line, and a great running back to his first Super Bowl win and his second appearance, he can't be considered along with those guys until he is carrying an offense.

Wilson is a different type of QB. I agree that doesn't make him better.

What makes him better is the fact that he has more difference making skills.

It's easy to argue he's as good as Brady, and better in fact. He throws fewer passes but is more productive with what he does throw. Then there's that little fact that he's far more skilled.

Can you just look at your arguments for why Brady is bad, and apply that same thinking to Wilson. Great defense, Great O-Line, Great running back, Great/ good recievers, it's a system perfectly fit for him. I am not a fan of Brady, I don't like him, he deserves all of our respect though. Wilson is not far more skilled at passing.

Posted by bistiza on 1/31/2016 10:03:00 AM (view original):

Posted by npb7768 on 1/31/2016 5:18:00 AM (view original):
Ok, following up...

I just had the misfortune of reading through some random pages on this thread. The main Brady hater lost his marbles by Page 7. Carson Palmer? Trent Dilfer? For old timers like me, that's the equivalent of saying that Joe Pisarcik or Norris Weese was more valuable than Plunkett or Bradshaw. Amirite or amirite?

I've provided a great argument for everything I've said, and your only counter is to attack me personally and say I've "lost my marbles"?

In other words, you've got no counter argument.

You saying you have great counter for everything is like Hillary saying she has a great counter for all of her criticisms, it's a series of the same argument that ignores the other side and the truth.

Posted by bistiza on 1/31/2016 10:10:00 AM (view original):

Posted by edsortails on 1/31/2016 6:56:00 AM (view original):
there is an old thread in the football forums where he did the same thing....to the point that mere Brady haters were finding themselves defending Brady against his rants

I've presented great arguments that Brady is over rated and not nearly as good as many people believe, and not one person has yet to come up with any kind of effective counter argument.

The stats don't lie. The facts don't either.

FACT: Brady has always had great coaching.

FACT: Brady has had good O-lines to play behind, and often great ones.

FACT: Brady throws shorter passes than other QBs, but is less accurate than others in the same era (see post earlier in this thread).

FACT: Brady has often played on teams which featured some of the top defenses in the NFL those years.

FACT: Brady has always played with receivers who were well-suited to the NE system of short passes and running after the catch.

FACT: Twice Brady has played with the best player in the NFL at their position catching his passes for multiple seasons (Randy Moss and Rob Gronkowski).

FACT: Brady caves under pressure from a pass rush, and is not listed as being in the top half of QBs when facing pressure (See earlier in the thread.)

FACT: When the Patriots lose in playoff games, it is typically Brady's fault, but it gets glossed over. (Last SB loss, he missed Welker on a throw that would have set up the win. Just last week had multiple interceptions and almost got bailed out by Gronkowski but still lost.)

FACT: When the Patriots win in playoff games, Brady gets all the credit even when he has little to do with it. (Last SB win, he's on the sidelines when the opposing coach makes a bad play call and a defender gambles and gets lucky.)

FACT: Brady has no difference making skills to speak of. No rocket arm, very little elusiveness, he can't shake tacklers well, can't throw downfield well, isn't fast or athletic and can't throw well on the run.

Fact: Wilson has had great coaching

Fact: Wilson plays behind a great offensive line

Fact: Wilson throws less passes than other QBs

Fact: Wilson plays on the team with the top defense in the NFL

Fact: Wilson has had some great recievers including arguably the best TE in the NFL Jimmy Grahem, a great playmaker in Percy Harvin, and a pretty darn good receiver in Doug Baldwin. He also doesn't throw down the field that often.

Fact: That is an opinion

Fact: Brady threw the ball to Gronk so it is not all Gronk. (That was a downfield pass btw, I thought he wasn't good at those)

Fact: Wilson threw the pick in the super bowl to lose the game while Brady was on the sideline.

Fact: that is an opinion

Fact: a lot of these so called "facts" are opinions

Posted by MonsterTurtl on 1/31/2016 5:30:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bistiza on 1/31/2016 9:56:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MonsterTurtl on 1/30/2016 9:34:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bistiza on 1/30/2016 5:15:00 PM (view original):

Posted by The Taint on 1/30/2016 3:45:00 PM (view original):
Uhhh, you should probably check into Wilson's stretch of games this year without Lynch.  Historic numbers were put up.

In four NFL seasons, Wilson is averaging over 600 rushing yards per season. Funny, Brady doesn't do that.

He also has completed over 64 percent of his passes, while a higher percentage of his completions go for 20+ and 40+ yards than what Brady does.

Despite throwing more downfield balls, Wilson has a very low interception percentage, similar to what Brady does with shorter throws that are less likely to be intercepted.

The guy's QB rating is over 101 for his career, and 2014 was the only of his four seasons when he was under a 100 QB rating (it was still a respectable 95). Brady's career average is 96.4, and other than 2014, Wilson has had a higher rating in every year than Brady.

Brady throws for more yardage, but he also attempts about 8-10 more passes per game than Wilson.

Given the above along with Wilson's rushing yardage, scrambling ability, athleticism, elusiveness, and ability to throw while on the run, he has been a far superior QB to Brady the past four seasons, which are all we have to directly compare.

If Wilson can keep up what he's been doing for several more seasons, there is no reason to think he can't be one of, if not the very best, QB in the NFL.

Wilson is a different type of QB, that doesn't mean he's better. He is a dual threat, Brady is a pocket passer, there is something to be said for both. The majority of QBs in the NFL are pocket passers, and as I said earlier all of the best QBs are besides Big Ben, and even he isn't really dual threat. So to say Wilson is better than Brady because he can run, make athletic plays, scramble, you would also have to say he is better than everyone else because they can't do any of that either. Wilson is not as intelligent of a passer as Brady, as I have explained, he plays in a run oriented offense, he throws to his best two recievers (This year Graham, and Baldwin) the large majority of the time, and he plays against defenses that stack the box so he gets 1 on 1 coverage for his two best receivers. It's kind of hard to argue that he is as good as Brady when he throws way less passes, as you said 8-10, which makes a huge difference, it means the defense is thinking about stopping the run, there are less chances for interceptions, and there are less chances for incompletions to ruin his good QBR that you brought up, he is not relied upon to carry an offense, he probably will later in his career but not yet. Brady is relied upon to carry an offense, their run game is vertically non existent this season, don't argue with me on that I had Blount on my fantasy team. Wilson to going to be top 3 of his era I think, along with Luck, and either Newton, Tannihill, Cousins, Carr, or like Boartles or something. But he isn't in the top group just yet, for a lot of the reasons you say Brady is bad, he was carried by a STELLER defense, a great O-line, and a great running back to his first Super Bowl win and his second appearance, he can't be considered along with those guys until he is carrying an offense.

Wilson is a different type of QB. I agree that doesn't make him better.

What makes him better is the fact that he has more difference making skills.

It's easy to argue he's as good as Brady, and better in fact. He throws fewer passes but is more productive with what he does throw. Then there's that little fact that he's far more skilled.

Can you just look at your arguments for why Brady is bad, and apply that same thinking to Wilson. Great defense, Great O-Line, Great running back, Great/ good recievers, it's a system perfectly fit for him. I am not a fan of Brady, I don't like him, he deserves all of our respect though. Wilson is not far more skilled at passing.

Ok.

Brady isn't great because he lacks difference making skills. Wilson has those, so this doesn't apply to Wilson.

Brady isn't great because he throws short passes more than most QBs and lets the receives do the work. Wilson throws longer passes than Brady on average, so this again doesn't apply to Wilson.

Yes, Wilson has had great talent around him to be sure, and yes, it's helped him to succeed and win games, including in the playoffs and a Super Bowl win (which by all rights should have been back to back Super Bowl wins).

HOWEVER, the key difference is that Wilson makes plays for himself too, while Brady lacks the difference making skills to do that.

Posted by MonsterTurtl on 1/31/2016 5:52:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bistiza on 1/31/2016 10:10:00 AM (view original):

Posted by edsortails on 1/31/2016 6:56:00 AM (view original):
there is an old thread in the football forums where he did the same thing....to the point that mere Brady haters were finding themselves defending Brady against his rants

I've presented great arguments that Brady is over rated and not nearly as good as many people believe, and not one person has yet to come up with any kind of effective counter argument.

The stats don't lie. The facts don't either.

FACT: Brady has always had great coaching.

FACT: Brady has had good O-lines to play behind, and often great ones.

FACT: Brady throws shorter passes than other QBs, but is less accurate than others in the same era (see post earlier in this thread).

FACT: Brady has often played on teams which featured some of the top defenses in the NFL those years.

FACT: Brady has always played with receivers who were well-suited to the NE system of short passes and running after the catch.

FACT: Twice Brady has played with the best player in the NFL at their position catching his passes for multiple seasons (Randy Moss and Rob Gronkowski).

FACT: Brady caves under pressure from a pass rush, and is not listed as being in the top half of QBs when facing pressure (See earlier in the thread.)

FACT: When the Patriots lose in playoff games, it is typically Brady's fault, but it gets glossed over. (Last SB loss, he missed Welker on a throw that would have set up the win. Just last week had multiple interceptions and almost got bailed out by Gronkowski but still lost.)

FACT: When the Patriots win in playoff games, Brady gets all the credit even when he has little to do with it. (Last SB win, he's on the sidelines when the opposing coach makes a bad play call and a defender gambles and gets lucky.)

FACT: Brady has no difference making skills to speak of. No rocket arm, very little elusiveness, he can't shake tacklers well, can't throw downfield well, isn't fast or athletic and can't throw well on the run.

Fact: Wilson has had great coaching

Fact: Wilson plays behind a great offensive line

Fact: Wilson throws less passes than other QBs

Fact: Wilson plays on the team with the top defense in the NFL

Fact: Wilson has had some great recievers including arguably the best TE in the NFL Jimmy Grahem, a great playmaker in Percy Harvin, and a pretty darn good receiver in Doug Baldwin. He also doesn't throw down the field that often.

Fact: That is an opinion

Fact: Brady threw the ball to Gronk so it is not all Gronk. (That was a downfield pass btw, I thought he wasn't good at those)

Fact: Wilson threw the pick in the super bowl to lose the game while Brady was on the sideline.

Fact: that is an opinion

Fact: a lot of these so called "facts" are opinions

FACT: Wilson's "great coaching", while certainly better than average, actually cost his team the second of what should have been back to back Super Bowl titles.

FACT: Brady throws more passes than the average QB, because his team relies on dink and dunk passes more than other teams, and these are effectively the same as runs much of the time.

FACT: Graham isn't the best tight end in the NFL - that's Gronkowski.

FACT: Harvin and Baldwin aren't any better than most of the receivers Brady has had.

FACT: Any decent NFL QB can throw the ball up and let a great receiver like Gronkowski go after it. That's precisely the point - it's not Brady that is making the difference.

FACT: Wilson shouldn't have been passing at the end of the Super Bowl. It was a bad play call by his coach and a terrible gamble by the defender who got lucky because he happened to guess right (it's an easy TD if the guess is wrong, so it was a terrible gamble for the defender even though it worked out).

FACT: Nothing I said was fact is opinion. They are all demonstrated, and you haven't argued against any of them successfully.

You can't argue with that logic!

By favorite is the "gamble" by the DB in the super bowl, it was a quick slant route, every coach in America teaches what Butler did.......

FACT: Nothing I said was fact is opinion. They are all demonstrated, and you haven't argued against any of them successfully.

Check Brady stats.

5th all time passing stats
3rd passing tds
6th passing rating
5th all time completion
13th all time % completion

Playoffs
7957 yds, 56 tds, 88 rating, 62.4 completion

Manning
7198 yds, 40 tds, 87,9 rating, 63.3 completion

It's pretty even now. I am still thinking Brady, with four SBS, is ahead of Manning. But if Manning does win it this time, I think I am going to change my mind and put him ahead.

Manning played two more years.

Posted by bistiza on 1/31/2016 6:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MonsterTurtl on 1/31/2016 5:52:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bistiza on 1/31/2016 10:10:00 AM (view original):

Posted by edsortails on 1/31/2016 6:56:00 AM (view original):
there is an old thread in the football forums where he did the same thing....to the point that mere Brady haters were finding themselves defending Brady against his rants

I've presented great arguments that Brady is over rated and not nearly as good as many people believe, and not one person has yet to come up with any kind of effective counter argument.

The stats don't lie. The facts don't either.

FACT: Brady has always had great coaching.

FACT: Brady has had good O-lines to play behind, and often great ones.

FACT: Brady throws shorter passes than other QBs, but is less accurate than others in the same era (see post earlier in this thread).

FACT: Brady has often played on teams which featured some of the top defenses in the NFL those years.

FACT: Brady has always played with receivers who were well-suited to the NE system of short passes and running after the catch.

FACT: Twice Brady has played with the best player in the NFL at their position catching his passes for multiple seasons (Randy Moss and Rob Gronkowski).

FACT: Brady caves under pressure from a pass rush, and is not listed as being in the top half of QBs when facing pressure (See earlier in the thread.)

FACT: When the Patriots lose in playoff games, it is typically Brady's fault, but it gets glossed over. (Last SB loss, he missed Welker on a throw that would have set up the win. Just last week had multiple interceptions and almost got bailed out by Gronkowski but still lost.)

FACT: When the Patriots win in playoff games, Brady gets all the credit even when he has little to do with it. (Last SB win, he's on the sidelines when the opposing coach makes a bad play call and a defender gambles and gets lucky.)

FACT: Brady has no difference making skills to speak of. No rocket arm, very little elusiveness, he can't shake tacklers well, can't throw downfield well, isn't fast or athletic and can't throw well on the run.

Fact: Wilson has had great coaching

Fact: Wilson plays behind a great offensive line

Fact: Wilson throws less passes than other QBs

Fact: Wilson plays on the team with the top defense in the NFL

Fact: Wilson has had some great recievers including arguably the best TE in the NFL Jimmy Grahem, a great playmaker in Percy Harvin, and a pretty darn good receiver in Doug Baldwin. He also doesn't throw down the field that often.

Fact: That is an opinion

Fact: Brady threw the ball to Gronk so it is not all Gronk. (That was a downfield pass btw, I thought he wasn't good at those)

Fact: Wilson threw the pick in the super bowl to lose the game while Brady was on the sideline.

Fact: that is an opinion

Fact: a lot of these so called "facts" are opinions

FACT: Wilson's "great coaching", while certainly better than average, actually cost his team the second of what should have been back to back Super Bowl titles.

FACT: Brady throws more passes than the average QB, because his team relies on dink and dunk passes more than other teams, and these are effectively the same as runs much of the time.

FACT: Graham isn't the best tight end in the NFL - that's Gronkowski.

FACT: Harvin and Baldwin aren't any better than most of the receivers Brady has had.

FACT: Any decent NFL QB can throw the ball up and let a great receiver like Gronkowski go after it. That's precisely the point - it's not Brady that is making the difference.

FACT: Wilson shouldn't have been passing at the end of the Super Bowl. It was a bad play call by his coach and a terrible gamble by the defender who got lucky because he happened to guess right (it's an easy TD if the guess is wrong, so it was a terrible gamble for the defender even though it worked out).

FACT: Nothing I said was fact is opinion. They are all demonstrated, and you haven't argued against any of them successfully.

Fact: that's one play call

Fact: that's still Brady making the passes, instead of in wilsons case the passes being non existent

Fact: That's opinion, Graham is a very good TE

Fact: yeah that's the point, Brady doesn't have better recievers.

Fact: it was a long pass deep down the field, with great placement, not everyone can make that throw, he deserves credit.

Fact: your argument there discredits yourself because you make it sound like a good play call.

Fact: gou should go back to your 6th grade English class and learn the difference between fact and opinion because "Brady always had good o lines" is an opinion, I don't think his o line this year is very good, as proven in the AFC championship game, Brady has no difference making skills to speak of is a opinion. Brady having little to do with their playoff wins is an opinion. Brady having everything to do with their playoff losses is an opinion. Brady caves under pressure from a pass rush is an opinion. I think you need to go back to English class. I haven't argued them successfully in your opinion, but to be fair nothing positive about Brady is acceptable in your opinion.

I seriously want to know what he has done to you

Posted by zorzii on 1/31/2016 8:23:00 PM (view original):
FACT: Nothing I said was fact is opinion. They are all demonstrated, and you haven't argued against any of them successfully.

Check Brady stats.

5th all time passing stats
3rd passing tds
6th passing rating
5th all time completion
13th all time % completion

Playoffs
7957 yds, 56 tds, 88 rating, 62.4 completion

Manning
7198 yds, 40 tds, 87,9 rating, 63.3 completion

It's pretty even now. I am still thinking Brady, with four SBS, is ahead of Manning. But if Manning does win it this time, I think I am going to change my mind and put him ahead.

Manning played two more years.

Wait... So your saying what he said is not factually correct? That's impossible, he said it was a fact.

Manning isn't getting any more rings forget about all that... Brady is the muhfuckin lord of the rings ******* its that simple
When Brady retires we a) get Tim Tebow who is unstoppable or b) get Johnny football so gronk has a friend to party with

Posted by MonsterTurtl on 1/31/2016 8:26:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bistiza on 1/31/2016 6:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MonsterTurtl on 1/31/2016 5:52:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bistiza on 1/31/2016 10:10:00 AM (view original):

Posted by edsortails on 1/31/2016 6:56:00 AM (view original):
there is an old thread in the football forums where he did the same thing....to the point that mere Brady haters were finding themselves defending Brady against his rants

I've presented great arguments that Brady is over rated and not nearly as good as many people believe, and not one person has yet to come up with any kind of effective counter argument.

The stats don't lie. The facts don't either.

FACT: Brady has always had great coaching.

FACT: Brady has had good O-lines to play behind, and often great ones.

FACT: Brady throws shorter passes than other QBs, but is less accurate than others in the same era (see post earlier in this thread).

FACT: Brady has often played on teams which featured some of the top defenses in the NFL those years.

FACT: Brady has always played with receivers who were well-suited to the NE system of short passes and running after the catch.

FACT: Twice Brady has played with the best player in the NFL at their position catching his passes for multiple seasons (Randy Moss and Rob Gronkowski).

FACT: Brady caves under pressure from a pass rush, and is not listed as being in the top half of QBs when facing pressure (See earlier in the thread.)

FACT: When the Patriots lose in playoff games, it is typically Brady's fault, but it gets glossed over. (Last SB loss, he missed Welker on a throw that would have set up the win. Just last week had multiple interceptions and almost got bailed out by Gronkowski but still lost.)

FACT: When the Patriots win in playoff games, Brady gets all the credit even when he has little to do with it. (Last SB win, he's on the sidelines when the opposing coach makes a bad play call and a defender gambles and gets lucky.)

FACT: Brady has no difference making skills to speak of. No rocket arm, very little elusiveness, he can't shake tacklers well, can't throw downfield well, isn't fast or athletic and can't throw well on the run.

Fact: Wilson has had great coaching

Fact: Wilson plays behind a great offensive line

Fact: Wilson throws less passes than other QBs

Fact: Wilson plays on the team with the top defense in the NFL

Fact: Wilson has had some great recievers including arguably the best TE in the NFL Jimmy Grahem, a great playmaker in Percy Harvin, and a pretty darn good receiver in Doug Baldwin. He also doesn't throw down the field that often.

Fact: That is an opinion

Fact: Brady threw the ball to Gronk so it is not all Gronk. (That was a downfield pass btw, I thought he wasn't good at those)

Fact: Wilson threw the pick in the super bowl to lose the game while Brady was on the sideline.

Fact: that is an opinion

Fact: a lot of these so called "facts" are opinions

FACT: Wilson's "great coaching", while certainly better than average, actually cost his team the second of what should have been back to back Super Bowl titles.

FACT: Brady throws more passes than the average QB, because his team relies on dink and dunk passes more than other teams, and these are effectively the same as runs much of the time.

FACT: Graham isn't the best tight end in the NFL - that's Gronkowski.

FACT: Harvin and Baldwin aren't any better than most of the receivers Brady has had.

FACT: Any decent NFL QB can throw the ball up and let a great receiver like Gronkowski go after it. That's precisely the point - it's not Brady that is making the difference.

FACT: Wilson shouldn't have been passing at the end of the Super Bowl. It was a bad play call by his coach and a terrible gamble by the defender who got lucky because he happened to guess right (it's an easy TD if the guess is wrong, so it was a terrible gamble for the defender even though it worked out).

FACT: Nothing I said was fact is opinion. They are all demonstrated, and you haven't argued against any of them successfully.

Fact: that's one play call

Fact: that's still Brady making the passes, instead of in wilsons case the passes being non existent

Fact: That's opinion, Graham is a very good TE

Fact: yeah that's the point, Brady doesn't have better recievers.

Fact: it was a long pass deep down the field, with great placement, not everyone can make that throw, he deserves credit.

Fact: your argument there discredits yourself because you make it sound like a good play call.

Fact: gou should go back to your 6th grade English class and learn the difference between fact and opinion because "Brady always had good o lines" is an opinion, I don't think his o line this year is very good, as proven in the AFC championship game, Brady has no difference making skills to speak of is a opinion. Brady having little to do with their playoff wins is an opinion. Brady having everything to do with their playoff losses is an opinion. Brady caves under pressure from a pass rush is an opinion. I think you need to go back to English class. I haven't argued them successfully in your opinion, but to be fair nothing positive about Brady is acceptable in your opinion.

I seriously want to know what he has done to you

Can't believe I just waded through all that nonsense but I had to post to agree with MonsterTurtl.  Almost all of these "facts" that you are throwing out there, are in fact, opinions Bistiza.  For those who don't mind giving yourself a migraine for a minute, does Bistiza not remind you exactly of that tool Etta in this thread.  I mean, their debating/arguing/making a point styles are as identical as you can get.  Can anyone HONESTLY say they ever saw Bistiza and Etta in the same place at the same time?  Mystery solved?

Relax Bistiza, it's just a joke..........probably, maybe.

Posted by Trentonjoe on 1/31/2016 6:54:00 PM (view original):
By favorite is the "gamble" by the DB in the super bowl, it was a quick slant route, every coach in America teaches what Butler did.......

You're kidding, right?

Butler had no idea what route was called - he guessed. That's the gamble he took. He just happened to be right. He got lucky. If he wasn't right, he just lost the game for his team - and given the other routes that could have been called, it's more likely he'd be wrong than right. It was a horribly play that just happened to work.

It's like placing a single bet on snake eyes at a craps table and it hits. It doesn't make it a good move - it just means you got lucky. Most of the time it will lose.

One thing for sure, I am calling it now, Bistiza. We all get together, all the HOOPS coaches in a bar somewhere in the States, preferably the East and we Watch the first game Brady plays next season and you comment. We get some chicken wings going, we get a beer, we sit down, and enjoy your analysis! Cause I am pretty sure, you can't stand Brady, you hate him so much, you think he is not even good looking and his wife looks like Judge Judy.