Posted by npb7768 on 11/4/2022 2:59:00 PM (view original):

Posted by doogan on 11/4/2022 2:56:00 PM (view original):
Is it my responsibility as a WIS player to know what all the other hundreds of coaches know? I honestly have no clue what the level of knowledge is on redshirting a senior. As I've mentioned, just learned that all internationals will take a redshirt. Good on you if you knew that and I didn't.

Cool. Keep deflecting, never apologize. Don't take no sh-t off nobody.

You say the difference between the Inform of Redshirt and redshirting a senior is that one of them people knew about and the other people didn't. I tell you I have no idea what people know about and your response is, "Cool. Keep deflecting." Maybe address what else is different about the two things since I answered your first response explaining how it is irrelevant.

Posted by doogan on 11/4/2022 2:24:00 PM (view original):

Posted by npb7768 on 11/4/2022 2:22:00 PM (view original):
Good strategy by doogan here... cook up some completely irrelevant "Sr redshirt" talking point and try to deflect. A+++

How is the Sr redshirt thing different from the Inform of Redshirt?

I'm done playing the game so if I wanted to deflect I would just disappear. Which I hope I will do in the next 24 hours or so.

And that is a hope shared by many others, I am confident. Take your whole cabal with you, and you'll accomplish what CS didn't.

Posted by bathtubhippo on 11/4/2022 2:44:00 PM (view original):
I can buy a lack of clarity from the original CS response obfuscating this issue.

But, from my understanding of this, it seems very disingenuous to boil it down to just the number of AP this provides directly and compare it to senior redshirts. Opening a greater amount of players early is an advantage to the coach doing it but when a high prestige team gets their name up on recruits, we all know it discourages other teams from going after players, especially on midrange players and backups where people want to minimize resources spent. I mean, cmon. Clearly this had a big ripple effect.

Hey BTH, enjoyed competing against you over the years.

It can be good to get your name up on recruits but it also is dangerous, right? You don't want to appear overstretched. I don't think there's nearly as much "running for the hills" from high prestige teams in 3.0 as there used to be in 2.0. I've never denied it was an advantage. Not every advantage gained is cheating. That's part of my point with the Sr. Redshirt. I don't have all the data or whatever to lay it out but I truly believe the advantage gained from both things is very comparable.

Not that i am trying to defend anyone or anyone needs to be defended, but doogan doing it 14x over the past ten months with multiple teams / multiple worlds and 100+ users doing it 4-5x and that was seen as regular use doesn't seem like cheating to me.

It actually shows restraint that he didn't do it while knowing about it. My 2 cents.

Posted by doogan on 11/4/2022 3:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by npb7768 on 11/4/2022 2:59:00 PM (view original):

Posted by doogan on 11/4/2022 2:56:00 PM (view original):
Is it my responsibility as a WIS player to know what all the other hundreds of coaches know? I honestly have no clue what the level of knowledge is on redshirting a senior. As I've mentioned, just learned that all internationals will take a redshirt. Good on you if you knew that and I didn't.

Cool. Keep deflecting, never apologize. Don't take no sh-t off nobody.

You say the difference between the Inform of Redshirt and redshirting a senior is that one of them people knew about and the other people didn't. I tell you I have no idea what people know about and your response is, "Cool. Keep deflecting." Maybe address what else is different about the two things since I answered your first response explaining how it is irrelevant.

You: "Please spend the next hour trying to convince me of something that i have no intention of accepting".

(Sorry i have work to do)

Posted by npb7768 on 11/4/2022 3:08:00 PM (view original):

Posted by doogan on 11/4/2022 3:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by npb7768 on 11/4/2022 2:59:00 PM (view original):

Posted by doogan on 11/4/2022 2:56:00 PM (view original):
Is it my responsibility as a WIS player to know what all the other hundreds of coaches know? I honestly have no clue what the level of knowledge is on redshirting a senior. As I've mentioned, just learned that all internationals will take a redshirt. Good on you if you knew that and I didn't.

Cool. Keep deflecting, never apologize. Don't take no sh-t off nobody.

You say the difference between the Inform of Redshirt and redshirting a senior is that one of them people knew about and the other people didn't. I tell you I have no idea what people know about and your response is, "Cool. Keep deflecting." Maybe address what else is different about the two things since I answered your first response explaining how it is irrelevant.

You: "Please spend the next hour trying to convince me of something that i have no intention of accepting".

You: "Unable to bring logic to this discussion and explain how I'm wrong."

Yeah, I didn’t know that all internationals could take a redshirt until yesterday. I wonder how many people knew about that and if those who use it knowingly will be investigated. Does that mean even if they take a promise? I’m assuming no but trying to catch up on that new loophole/exploit

Posted by Carlos13842 on 11/4/2022 3:07:00 PM (view original):
Not that i am trying to defend anyone or anyone needs to be defended, but doogan doing it 14x over the past ten months with multiple teams / multiple worlds and 100+ users doing it 4-5x and that was seen as regular use doesn't seem like cheating to me.

It actually shows restraint that he didn't do it while knowing about it. My 2 cents.

I only had one team and the only restraint I used was just based on what I felt was best strategy to get the recruits I wanted. I wasn't at all "holding back" from using it because I thought it was wrong. Again, I'd hold this up as some small piece of evidence that it wasn't the advantage most have made it out to be.

Posted by doogan on 11/4/2022 3:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by npb7768 on 11/4/2022 3:08:00 PM (view original):

Posted by doogan on 11/4/2022 3:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by npb7768 on 11/4/2022 2:59:00 PM (view original):

Posted by doogan on 11/4/2022 2:56:00 PM (view original):
Is it my responsibility as a WIS player to know what all the other hundreds of coaches know? I honestly have no clue what the level of knowledge is on redshirting a senior. As I've mentioned, just learned that all internationals will take a redshirt. Good on you if you knew that and I didn't.

Cool. Keep deflecting, never apologize. Don't take no sh-t off nobody.

You say the difference between the Inform of Redshirt and redshirting a senior is that one of them people knew about and the other people didn't. I tell you I have no idea what people know about and your response is, "Cool. Keep deflecting." Maybe address what else is different about the two things since I answered your first response explaining how it is irrelevant.

You: "Please spend the next hour trying to convince me of something that i have no intention of accepting".

You: "Unable to bring logic to this discussion and explain how I'm wrong."

Me: "I have work to do. Take care. Enjoy your retirement."

To Doogan, Cimmy and Robinhood:

I appreciated the competition (mostly spankings that were dealt my way) while at Rhode Island. You guys really informed my growth as a D1 coach, and I took that role because I thought it would be like going through the grinder - albeit before Cimmy was at SJ. I'm not even mad. GL to whatever next steps you take. Losing your resume is harsh, but given a short amount of time you could already silence the critics by creating a new resume already surpassing where they stand. Up to you. As far as collusion in recruiting: I often try to steer away from competing with same conference coaches recruiting (if i can), because I hope that the entire conference is landing their recruits so we can all be stronger. Playing against family I would probably never compete for a recruit, but it would be fun to joke about how the recruit just liked the better coach more when they signed with you. As long as each coach is all out on the recruit.

To CS:

To me, this seems like an opportunity, and I hope it is not missed. It seems like promising a player that you would not redshirt them is a positive contribution in recruiting - I didn't know about it, but given enough time I'm sure I would've figured it out. I think it has a realistic application, but probably shouldn't be available to inform of redshirt until you've unlocked a scholarship offer through AP. If I were a recruit, I would like to know that I won't be given a redshirt. There are probably many options as far as solutions go, and I'm sure they'll be explored and feedback will be requested. My vote would probably be towards a progress bar akin to 'promise minutes' which becomes 'inform of non-redshirt'... OR instead of 'promise minutes' it becomes 'playing time' where an option above '10 minutes' is 'inform of non-redshirt'.

Posted by doogan on 11/4/2022 2:59:00 PM (view original):
Topdogg seems like a very involved owner in the game. He just said he's never redshirted a senior in D1. This tells me he either A) vastly underrates/doesn't understand how beneficial it is or B) should be reporting it to CS as a cheating. If you're a good, knowledgeable player, the only good reason to not be redshirting seniors on a regular basis is if you think it's cheating.

That’s why I don’t do it. I don’t wanna mess with it. Early on, and in my D2 career, I openly did it. I’ve talked to CS about it before! Multiple times. I mentioned that I was the LEADER of the Inel promises getting changed. I do talk with CS when necessary. If I had to rank the issues, this unlocking redshirt unredshirt flip it upside down redshirt it again, click your heels, redshirt again, whatever….. this is a landslide #1 issue. #2 was the inel thing. And then #3 is the senior redshirt is third. You get resources but you’re also sacrificing a season, and the WE and other various issues.

as one use said, the ripple effect on things of this nature are the silent killers.

Posted by Carlos13842 on 11/4/2022 3:07:00 PM (view original):
Not that i am trying to defend anyone or anyone needs to be defended, but doogan doing it 14x over the past ten months with multiple teams / multiple worlds and 100+ users doing it 4-5x and that was seen as regular use doesn't seem like cheating to me.

It actually shows restraint that he didn't do it while knowing about it. My 2 cents.

But yeah, if I used it 14 times in the last 10 months that's like 600 APs I gained from it across like 6 or 7 HD seasons? As compared to the extra 500 APs and $3k you get from redshirting a senior.

Posted by Carlos13842 on 11/4/2022 3:07:00 PM (view original):
Not that i am trying to defend anyone or anyone needs to be defended, but doogan doing it 14x over the past ten months with multiple teams / multiple worlds and 100+ users doing it 4-5x and that was seen as regular use doesn't seem like cheating to me.

It actually shows restraint that he didn't do it while knowing about it. My 2 cents.

This IS a fair assessment

Posted by doogan on 11/4/2022 3:17:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Carlos13842 on 11/4/2022 3:07:00 PM (view original):
Not that i am trying to defend anyone or anyone needs to be defended, but doogan doing it 14x over the past ten months with multiple teams / multiple worlds and 100+ users doing it 4-5x and that was seen as regular use doesn't seem like cheating to me.

It actually shows restraint that he didn't do it while knowing about it. My 2 cents.

But yeah, if I used it 14 times in the last 10 months that's like 600 APs I gained from it across like 6 or 7 HD seasons? As compared to the extra 500 APs and $3k you get from redshirting a senior.

Comparing the Sr redshirt comment is NOT fair, or equal. They’re different scenarios

Posted by PaulConstant on 11/4/2022 3:16:00 PM (view original):
To Doogan, Cimmy and Robinhood:

I appreciated the competition (mostly spankings that were dealt my way) while at Rhode Island. You guys really informed my growth as a D1 coach, and I took that role because I thought it would be like going through the grinder - albeit before Cimmy was at SJ. I'm not even mad. GL to whatever next steps you take. Losing your resume is harsh, but given a short amount of time you could already silence the critics by creating a new resume already surpassing where they stand. Up to you. As far as collusion in recruiting: I often try to steer away from competing with same conference coaches recruiting (if i can), because I hope that the entire conference is landing their recruits so we can all be stronger. Playing against family I would probably never compete for a recruit, but it would be fun to joke about how the recruit just liked the better coach more when they signed with you. As long as each coach is all out on the recruit.

To CS:

To me, this seems like an opportunity, and I hope it is not missed. It seems like promising a player that you would not redshirt them is a positive contribution in recruiting - I didn't know about it, but given enough time I'm sure I would've figured it out. I think it has a realistic application, but probably shouldn't be available to inform of redshirt until you've unlocked a scholarship offer through AP. If I were a recruit, I would like to know that I won't be given a redshirt. There are probably many options as far as solutions go, and I'm sure they'll be explored and feedback will be requested. My vote would probably be towards a progress bar akin to 'promise minutes' which becomes 'inform of non-redshirt'... OR instead of 'promise minutes' it becomes 'playing time' where an option above '10 minutes' is 'inform of non-redshirt'.

Hey Paul, enjoyed competing against you as well. You would probably attest that I also tried to steer clear of recruiting battles in conference though I'm sure we had a few over the years when you were at Rhode Island. There were definitely some seasons there that you kicked my butt. But I'm sure that mentality of avoiding in-conference battles when necessary helped build that A10 into what it was. Good luck to you!