Ted Williams absolutely refused to swing at anything that he did not like...and the same argument was leveled against him...but I think I would probably listen to Teddy Ballgame about the science of hitting.

For the prime Edgar years he was hitting 3-4-5 and the guys after him were Tino Martinez (95) Buhner, David Segui, John Olerud, and Bret Boone...at least according to some random checks of boxscores between 95-2001...not a terrible group of hitters.

And as to Mike's comment about a walk not leading to a run helping the team, I'd offer the advantages of running up pitch counts and increasing pitcher fatigue. In a similar vein I would post the question "does an incomplete pass 40 yards down field help the offensive team win?" And all intelligent football fans would see the positive effects of such a play even though it did not bear immediate fruit.

Posted by bad_luck on 2/7/2014 9:27:00 PM (view original):
I ran a BR report so that he'd shut up and it worked. Well worth the 4 minutes it took.

Any chance I just wasn't online on a Friday night?

Martinez took walks so Dan Wilson and Russ Davis could get more AB with runners on base.   That's sound baseball because, I imagine soon, we'll be arguing the HOF credentials of both those guys.

Posted by seamar_116 on 2/8/2014 2:13:00 AM (view original):
For the prime Edgar years he was hitting 3-4-5 and the guys after him were Tino Martinez (95) Buhner, David Segui, John Olerud, and Bret Boone...at least according to some random checks of boxscores between 95-2001...not a terrible group of hitters.

And as to Mike's comment about a walk not leading to a run helping the team, I'd offer the advantages of running up pitch counts and increasing pitcher fatigue. In a similar vein I would post the question "does an incomplete pass 40 yards down field help the offensive team win?" And all intelligent football fans would see the positive effects of such a play even though it did not bear immediate fruit.

I'd prefer that Tino Martinez, Buhner, Segui, Olerud and Boone run up the pitch counts and the better hitter actually hit.

Again, with a runner on 3rd and two out, who do you want swinging the bat?

.320 hitter or .227 hitter?

Posted by seamar_116 on 2/8/2014 1:55:00 AM (view original):
Ted Williams absolutely refused to swing at anything that he did not like...and the same argument was leveled against him...but I think I would probably listen to Teddy Ballgame about the science of hitting.

Stil hit .240 on pitches he couldn't hit.   If the guy behind him was a .220 hitter, he'd have helped the team more by being less selective.    Which is what I've been arguing about EM. 

Seems he was well above the league average when he actually swung the bat.    I won't bother looking up the slugs who hit behind him as I'm sure BL will,  And he'll post them if someone is better.

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/8/2014 8:05:00 AM (view original):



Seems he was well above the league average when he actually swung the bat.    I won't bother looking up the slugs who hit behind him as I'm sure BL will,  And he'll post them if someone is better.

What do you think happens to that number if he becomes less selective at the plate?

The fact that you would trade 50 walks for 15 hits shows that you have no idea what you're talking about and do not grasp the small difference in run values between a walk and a hit and the huge difference in run values between making an out and reaching base.

Wanna quote that 15 for 50 statement for me?

Nevermind, it doesn't exist.   Argue against what I say not what makes your argument better.

So you would rather have the 50 walks? Yes or no.

I'd rather not add 35 outs.    I'll trade 13-14 outs for 6-7 hits over the course of a season.

So would you like to tell us where you got 15 for 50?

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/7/2014 2:42:00 PM (view original):
Baseball wisdom says you don't put a player in scoring position intentionally.  But that seems to be a different argument.  I'm not arguing what the opponent should or shouldn't have done.  In fact, you're telling me they would not have pitched around him(and I agree).  Therefore, he was drawing a walk and not being issued one.

Anyway, the objective is to score a run.   I assume we all agree it's just based on opportunity.  Opportunity that you create and opportunity that a teammate takes advantage of.    There may be a stat for this but I'm not aware of it.  

Subtracting homers, because you knock yourself in, EM was on base 3310 times(simplistic 1938 H, 1283 BB, 89 HBP) and scored 910 times.  .275 rate. Maybe that's good, maybe it's bad.  I don't know.    By comparison, Bernie Williams(chosen because we've argued the value between these two before and because he hit 3rd/4th most of his career) was on base 3157 times(2049 H, 1069 BB, 39 HBP) and scored 1079 runs.  .342 rate. 

Was EM helping his team the most possible by walking and counting on his teammates to get him around?

Rickey Henderson was .396.
Alfonso Soriano, who has probably batted in every slot, was .327.
Brett Gardner, who hit last for a long time, comes in at .420.

I imagine you'll have a hard time finding anyone who scored at a less frequent rate than Martinez did.

So you would rather have 50 walks instead of 15 hits. Good to know. Not sure why this argument is still going.

I think the idea that Martinez's high OBP hurts his hall of fame case has been confirmed as 100% retarded. We can stop this now, right?

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/8/2014 1:15:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/7/2014 2:42:00 PM (view original):
Baseball wisdom says you don't put a player in scoring position intentionally.  But that seems to be a different argument.  I'm not arguing what the opponent should or shouldn't have done.  In fact, you're telling me they would not have pitched around him(and I agree).  Therefore, he was drawing a walk and not being issued one.

Anyway, the objective is to score a run.   I assume we all agree it's just based on opportunity.  Opportunity that you create and opportunity that a teammate takes advantage of.    There may be a stat for this but I'm not aware of it.  

Subtracting homers, because you knock yourself in, EM was on base 3310 times(simplistic 1938 H, 1283 BB, 89 HBP) and scored 910 times.  .275 rate. Maybe that's good, maybe it's bad.  I don't know.    By comparison, Bernie Williams(chosen because we've argued the value between these two before and because he hit 3rd/4th most of his career) was on base 3157 times(2049 H, 1069 BB, 39 HBP) and scored 1079 runs.  .342 rate. 

Was EM helping his team the most possible by walking and counting on his teammates to get him around?

Rickey Henderson was .396.
Alfonso Soriano, who has probably batted in every slot, was .327.
Brett Gardner, who hit last for a long time, comes in at .420.

I imagine you'll have a hard time finding anyone who scored at a less frequent rate than Martinez did.

What does that have to do with Martinez?

He walks and 72.5% of the time, he's standing on a bag when the inning ends.   Passing the buck to the next guy doesn't exactly work out for him. 

The objective is to score runs, right?  Or is it to have a high OBP?