Posted by zorzii on 1/31/2016 8:23:00 PM (view original):
FACT: Nothing I said was fact is opinion. They are all demonstrated, and you haven't argued against any of them successfully.

Check Brady stats.

5th all time passing stats
3rd passing tds
6th passing rating
5th all time completion
13th all time % completion

Playoffs
7957 yds, 56 tds, 88 rating, 62.4 completion

Manning
7198 yds, 40 tds, 87,9 rating, 63.3 completion

It's pretty even now. I am still thinking Brady, with four SBS, is ahead of Manning. But if Manning does win it this time, I think I am going to change my mind and put him ahead.

Manning played two more years.

I've seen his states. You don't seem to understand they don't tell the story you're trying to create.

What they DO tell is this:

Brady has been a starting NFL QB for a long time. He's thrown a lot of short routes, which result in higher completion percentages.

Great. I don't disagree with either of those statements.

You were okay until when you start using SB wins as an argument, which is ridiculous. Brady was carried kicking and screaming to those titles, all of which the team barely won, and at least two of which they didn't deserve to win (the first one, when they cheated versus the Rams, which should be stripped and vacated; also, last year's, which they had no business winning if Pete Carrol doesn't screw up the play call).

So, really, Brady should have at MOST two SB wins. Now if Manning had played for the same Pats teams, he'd probably have 10 rings. That's how much better the Patriots teams (and coaching) have been that what he's worked with.

Any argument which claims Brady is great because he was carried to four SB wins - all close games, one should be stripped - is ridiculous.

Go Eli!

Posted by MonsterTurtl on 1/31/2016 8:26:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bistiza on 1/31/2016 6:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MonsterTurtl on 1/31/2016 5:52:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bistiza on 1/31/2016 10:10:00 AM (view original):

Posted by edsortails on 1/31/2016 6:56:00 AM (view original):
there is an old thread in the football forums where he did the same thing....to the point that mere Brady haters were finding themselves defending Brady against his rants

I've presented great arguments that Brady is over rated and not nearly as good as many people believe, and not one person has yet to come up with any kind of effective counter argument.

The stats don't lie. The facts don't either.

FACT: Brady has always had great coaching.

FACT: Brady has had good O-lines to play behind, and often great ones.

FACT: Brady throws shorter passes than other QBs, but is less accurate than others in the same era (see post earlier in this thread).

FACT: Brady has often played on teams which featured some of the top defenses in the NFL those years.

FACT: Brady has always played with receivers who were well-suited to the NE system of short passes and running after the catch.

FACT: Twice Brady has played with the best player in the NFL at their position catching his passes for multiple seasons (Randy Moss and Rob Gronkowski).

FACT: Brady caves under pressure from a pass rush, and is not listed as being in the top half of QBs when facing pressure (See earlier in the thread.)

FACT: When the Patriots lose in playoff games, it is typically Brady's fault, but it gets glossed over. (Last SB loss, he missed Welker on a throw that would have set up the win. Just last week had multiple interceptions and almost got bailed out by Gronkowski but still lost.)

FACT: When the Patriots win in playoff games, Brady gets all the credit even when he has little to do with it. (Last SB win, he's on the sidelines when the opposing coach makes a bad play call and a defender gambles and gets lucky.)

FACT: Brady has no difference making skills to speak of. No rocket arm, very little elusiveness, he can't shake tacklers well, can't throw downfield well, isn't fast or athletic and can't throw well on the run.

Fact: Wilson has had great coaching

Fact: Wilson plays behind a great offensive line

Fact: Wilson throws less passes than other QBs

Fact: Wilson plays on the team with the top defense in the NFL

Fact: Wilson has had some great recievers including arguably the best TE in the NFL Jimmy Grahem, a great playmaker in Percy Harvin, and a pretty darn good receiver in Doug Baldwin. He also doesn't throw down the field that often.

Fact: That is an opinion

Fact: Brady threw the ball to Gronk so it is not all Gronk. (That was a downfield pass btw, I thought he wasn't good at those)

Fact: Wilson threw the pick in the super bowl to lose the game while Brady was on the sideline.

Fact: that is an opinion

Fact: a lot of these so called "facts" are opinions

FACT: Wilson's "great coaching", while certainly better than average, actually cost his team the second of what should have been back to back Super Bowl titles.

FACT: Brady throws more passes than the average QB, because his team relies on dink and dunk passes more than other teams, and these are effectively the same as runs much of the time.

FACT: Graham isn't the best tight end in the NFL - that's Gronkowski.

FACT: Harvin and Baldwin aren't any better than most of the receivers Brady has had.

FACT: Any decent NFL QB can throw the ball up and let a great receiver like Gronkowski go after it. That's precisely the point - it's not Brady that is making the difference.

FACT: Wilson shouldn't have been passing at the end of the Super Bowl. It was a bad play call by his coach and a terrible gamble by the defender who got lucky because he happened to guess right (it's an easy TD if the guess is wrong, so it was a terrible gamble for the defender even though it worked out).

FACT: Nothing I said was fact is opinion. They are all demonstrated, and you haven't argued against any of them successfully.

Fact: that's one play call

Fact: that's still Brady making the passes, instead of in wilsons case the passes being non existent

Fact: That's opinion, Graham is a very good TE

Fact: yeah that's the point, Brady doesn't have better recievers.

Fact: it was a long pass deep down the field, with great placement, not everyone can make that throw, he deserves credit.

Fact: your argument there discredits yourself because you make it sound like a good play call.

Fact: gou should go back to your 6th grade English class and learn the difference between fact and opinion because "Brady always had good o lines" is an opinion, I don't think his o line this year is very good, as proven in the AFC championship game, Brady has no difference making skills to speak of is a opinion. Brady having little to do with their playoff wins is an opinion. Brady having everything to do with their playoff losses is an opinion. Brady caves under pressure from a pass rush is an opinion. I think you need to go back to English class. I haven't argued them successfully in your opinion, but to be fair nothing positive about Brady is acceptable in your opinion.

I seriously want to know what he has done to you

FACT: It was arguably the biggest play call in Carroll's (and his entire offensive coaching staff's) career.

FACT: You're now giving Brady credit for simply being the guy who threw the ball in situations where any decent NFL QB could have done the same - this is the very definition of over rating him.

FACT: No one seriously argues for Graham over Gronkowski as best TE in football.

FACT: Brady does have good receivers. Always has. They fit very well in the system NE plays, designed to minimize Brady's lack of difference making skills.

FACT: Placement? He tossed it up and let Gronkowski run under it. Most NFL QBs can make that throw.

FACT: It was a gamble of a play call, and a better gamble by the defender (as the situation turned out, anyway). Both were huge mistakes - the defender got lucky anyway, but ONLY because of an unnecessary gamble by Carroll.

FACT: The stats back up that Brady always had a good O-line. This was a year in flux for them, but most years he's had the guys to keep him protected quite well. I cited a few of those guys in previous posts.

FACT: I can cite you many times when Brady cost his team the game, and many more where he should have cost the game but someone else saved him. I've already done it in this thread several times. Heck, just look at this last game they lost to Denver - two interceptions and a whole lot of nothing from Brady except throw it up and let Gronk run under it.

There are plenty of positives about Brady. He's a good game manager QB who has managed not to screw up a lot of talented teams. Still, he does screw up his fair share of the time. Yet so many people want to call him great because he's Trent Dilfer from 2000 playing for many more seasons.

I'm just presenting the truth. Brady is the single most over rated player in the history of major pro sports.

On a scale of 1 - 100, with 100 being greatest ever and 0 being no good and out of the NFL right away...

Brady's over rated hype from most people would put him at about 95.

Brady's actual abilities put him at 60-65 or so.

That's a HUGE difference between hype and reality, one not matched by anyone else in any major pro sport.

Posted by zorzii on 2/1/2016 7:24:00 PM (view original):
One thing for sure, I am calling it now, Bistiza. We all get together, all the HOOPS coaches in a bar somewhere in the States, preferably the East and we Watch the first game Brady plays next season and you comment. We get some chicken wings going, we get a beer, we sit down, and enjoy your analysis! Cause I am pretty sure, you can't stand Brady, you hate him so much, you think he is not even good looking and his wife looks like Judge Judy.

That would be a fun discussion for sure.

And Judge Judy looks pretty decent for a 73 year old woman.

Posted by bistiza on 2/1/2016 7:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Trentonjoe on 1/31/2016 6:54:00 PM (view original):
By favorite is the "gamble" by the DB in the super bowl, it was a quick slant route, every coach in America teaches what Butler did.......

You're kidding, right?

Butler had no idea what route was called - he guessed. That's the gamble he took. He just happened to be right. He got lucky. If he wasn't right, he just lost the game for his team - and given the other routes that could have been called, it's more likely he'd be wrong than right. It was a horribly play that just happened to work.

It's like placing a single bet on snake eyes at a craps table and it hits. It doesn't make it a good move - it just means you got lucky. Most of the time it will lose.

You couldn't be any more wrong..... the receiver took a hard inside cut on the first or second step, on the two yard line you jump that all day long, there really isn't a lot else he could do in man coverage...the fundamental rule of man to man defense on the goal line is  "don't get beat on the slant"......what other routes could be called?....a slant and up?  not a ton of space, a whip route? there was a immediate outside receiver?  Plus  I remember Butler (?) that was a goal line play they really prepared for.....

Posted by bistiza on 2/1/2016 7:33:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MonsterTurtl on 1/31/2016 8:26:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bistiza on 1/31/2016 6:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MonsterTurtl on 1/31/2016 5:52:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bistiza on 1/31/2016 10:10:00 AM (view original):

Posted by edsortails on 1/31/2016 6:56:00 AM (view original):
there is an old thread in the football forums where he did the same thing....to the point that mere Brady haters were finding themselves defending Brady against his rants

I've presented great arguments that Brady is over rated and not nearly as good as many people believe, and not one person has yet to come up with any kind of effective counter argument.

The stats don't lie. The facts don't either.

FACT: Brady has always had great coaching.

FACT: Brady has had good O-lines to play behind, and often great ones.

FACT: Brady throws shorter passes than other QBs, but is less accurate than others in the same era (see post earlier in this thread).

FACT: Brady has often played on teams which featured some of the top defenses in the NFL those years.

FACT: Brady has always played with receivers who were well-suited to the NE system of short passes and running after the catch.

FACT: Twice Brady has played with the best player in the NFL at their position catching his passes for multiple seasons (Randy Moss and Rob Gronkowski).

FACT: Brady caves under pressure from a pass rush, and is not listed as being in the top half of QBs when facing pressure (See earlier in the thread.)

FACT: When the Patriots lose in playoff games, it is typically Brady's fault, but it gets glossed over. (Last SB loss, he missed Welker on a throw that would have set up the win. Just last week had multiple interceptions and almost got bailed out by Gronkowski but still lost.)

FACT: When the Patriots win in playoff games, Brady gets all the credit even when he has little to do with it. (Last SB win, he's on the sidelines when the opposing coach makes a bad play call and a defender gambles and gets lucky.)

FACT: Brady has no difference making skills to speak of. No rocket arm, very little elusiveness, he can't shake tacklers well, can't throw downfield well, isn't fast or athletic and can't throw well on the run.

Fact: Wilson has had great coaching

Fact: Wilson plays behind a great offensive line

Fact: Wilson throws less passes than other QBs

Fact: Wilson plays on the team with the top defense in the NFL

Fact: Wilson has had some great recievers including arguably the best TE in the NFL Jimmy Grahem, a great playmaker in Percy Harvin, and a pretty darn good receiver in Doug Baldwin. He also doesn't throw down the field that often.

Fact: That is an opinion

Fact: Brady threw the ball to Gronk so it is not all Gronk. (That was a downfield pass btw, I thought he wasn't good at those)

Fact: Wilson threw the pick in the super bowl to lose the game while Brady was on the sideline.

Fact: that is an opinion

Fact: a lot of these so called "facts" are opinions

FACT: Wilson's "great coaching", while certainly better than average, actually cost his team the second of what should have been back to back Super Bowl titles.

FACT: Brady throws more passes than the average QB, because his team relies on dink and dunk passes more than other teams, and these are effectively the same as runs much of the time.

FACT: Graham isn't the best tight end in the NFL - that's Gronkowski.

FACT: Harvin and Baldwin aren't any better than most of the receivers Brady has had.

FACT: Any decent NFL QB can throw the ball up and let a great receiver like Gronkowski go after it. That's precisely the point - it's not Brady that is making the difference.

FACT: Wilson shouldn't have been passing at the end of the Super Bowl. It was a bad play call by his coach and a terrible gamble by the defender who got lucky because he happened to guess right (it's an easy TD if the guess is wrong, so it was a terrible gamble for the defender even though it worked out).

FACT: Nothing I said was fact is opinion. They are all demonstrated, and you haven't argued against any of them successfully.

Fact: that's one play call

Fact: that's still Brady making the passes, instead of in wilsons case the passes being non existent

Fact: That's opinion, Graham is a very good TE

Fact: yeah that's the point, Brady doesn't have better recievers.

Fact: it was a long pass deep down the field, with great placement, not everyone can make that throw, he deserves credit.

Fact: your argument there discredits yourself because you make it sound like a good play call.

Fact: gou should go back to your 6th grade English class and learn the difference between fact and opinion because "Brady always had good o lines" is an opinion, I don't think his o line this year is very good, as proven in the AFC championship game, Brady has no difference making skills to speak of is a opinion. Brady having little to do with their playoff wins is an opinion. Brady having everything to do with their playoff losses is an opinion. Brady caves under pressure from a pass rush is an opinion. I think you need to go back to English class. I haven't argued them successfully in your opinion, but to be fair nothing positive about Brady is acceptable in your opinion.

I seriously want to know what he has done to you

FACT: It was arguably the biggest play call in Carroll's (and his entire offensive coaching staff's) career.

FACT: You're now giving Brady credit for simply being the guy who threw the ball in situations where any decent NFL QB could have done the same - this is the very definition of over rating him.

FACT: No one seriously argues for Graham over Gronkowski as best TE in football.

FACT: Brady does have good receivers. Always has. They fit very well in the system NE plays, designed to minimize Brady's lack of difference making skills.

FACT: Placement? He tossed it up and let Gronkowski run under it. Most NFL QBs can make that throw.

FACT: It was a gamble of a play call, and a better gamble by the defender (as the situation turned out, anyway). Both were huge mistakes - the defender got lucky anyway, but ONLY because of an unnecessary gamble by Carroll.

FACT: The stats back up that Brady always had a good O-line. This was a year in flux for them, but most years he's had the guys to keep him protected quite well. I cited a few of those guys in previous posts.

FACT: I can cite you many times when Brady cost his team the game, and many more where he should have cost the game but someone else saved him. I've already done it in this thread several times. Heck, just look at this last game they lost to Denver - two interceptions and a whole lot of nothing from Brady except throw it up and let Gronk run under it.

There are plenty of positives about Brady. He's a good game manager QB who has managed not to screw up a lot of talented teams. Still, he does screw up his fair share of the time. Yet so many people want to call him great because he's Trent Dilfer from 2000 playing for many more seasons.

I'm just presenting the truth. Brady is the single most over rated player in the history of major pro sports.

On a scale of 1 - 100, with 100 being greatest ever and 0 being no good and out of the NFL right away...

Brady's over rated hype from most people would put him at about 95.

Brady's actual abilities put him at 60-65 or so.

That's a HUGE difference between hype and reality, one not matched by anyone else in any major pro sport.

I love how you didn't answer my response to your English inadequacy. You are avoiding the all of the questions you can't answer, redirecting, and insulting, you seem to me to either be a trump supporter or a Clinton supporter, you sure have their mannerisms. There seems to be a common theme of you mistaking luck for skill as well, reading routes is somthing those players work for years at, reading defenses is a hard thing to do as well, which Brady does very well.

Posted by Trentonjoe on 2/1/2016 7:36:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bistiza on 2/1/2016 7:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Trentonjoe on 1/31/2016 6:54:00 PM (view original):
By favorite is the "gamble" by the DB in the super bowl, it was a quick slant route, every coach in America teaches what Butler did.......

You're kidding, right?

Butler had no idea what route was called - he guessed. That's the gamble he took. He just happened to be right. He got lucky. If he wasn't right, he just lost the game for his team - and given the other routes that could have been called, it's more likely he'd be wrong than right. It was a horribly play that just happened to work.

It's like placing a single bet on snake eyes at a craps table and it hits. It doesn't make it a good move - it just means you got lucky. Most of the time it will lose.

You couldn't be any more wrong..... the receiver took a hard inside cut on the first or second step, on the two yard line you jump that all day long, there really isn't a lot else he could do in man coverage...the fundamental rule of man to man defense on the goal line is  "don't get beat on the slant"......what other routes could be called?....a slant and up?  not a ton of space, a whip route? there was a immediate outside receiver?  Plus  I remember Butler (?) that was a goal line play they really prepared for.....

Listen to this guy, he sounds like he knows what he's talking about.

Who wins the AFC Championship?

Broncos ... with Manning at QB.

Can we end this thread now? Please?

Posted by MonsterTurtl on 1/31/2016 5:30:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bistiza on 1/31/2016 9:56:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MonsterTurtl on 1/30/2016 9:34:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bistiza on 1/30/2016 5:15:00 PM (view original):

Posted by The Taint on 1/30/2016 3:45:00 PM (view original):
Uhhh, you should probably check into Wilson's stretch of games this year without Lynch.  Historic numbers were put up.

In four NFL seasons, Wilson is averaging over 600 rushing yards per season. Funny, Brady doesn't do that.

He also has completed over 64 percent of his passes, while a higher percentage of his completions go for 20+ and 40+ yards than what Brady does.

Despite throwing more downfield balls, Wilson has a very low interception percentage, similar to what Brady does with shorter throws that are less likely to be intercepted.

The guy's QB rating is over 101 for his career, and 2014 was the only of his four seasons when he was under a 100 QB rating (it was still a respectable 95). Brady's career average is 96.4, and other than 2014, Wilson has had a higher rating in every year than Brady.

Brady throws for more yardage, but he also attempts about 8-10 more passes per game than Wilson.

Given the above along with Wilson's rushing yardage, scrambling ability, athleticism, elusiveness, and ability to throw while on the run, he has been a far superior QB to Brady the past four seasons, which are all we have to directly compare.

If Wilson can keep up what he's been doing for several more seasons, there is no reason to think he can't be one of, if not the very best, QB in the NFL.

Wilson is a different type of QB, that doesn't mean he's better. He is a dual threat, Brady is a pocket passer, there is something to be said for both. The majority of QBs in the NFL are pocket passers, and as I said earlier all of the best QBs are besides Big Ben, and even he isn't really dual threat. So to say Wilson is better than Brady because he can run, make athletic plays, scramble, you would also have to say he is better than everyone else because they can't do any of that either. Wilson is not as intelligent of a passer as Brady, as I have explained, he plays in a run oriented offense, he throws to his best two recievers (This year Graham, and Baldwin) the large majority of the time, and he plays against defenses that stack the box so he gets 1 on 1 coverage for his two best receivers. It's kind of hard to argue that he is as good as Brady when he throws way less passes, as you said 8-10, which makes a huge difference, it means the defense is thinking about stopping the run, there are less chances for interceptions, and there are less chances for incompletions to ruin his good QBR that you brought up, he is not relied upon to carry an offense, he probably will later in his career but not yet. Brady is relied upon to carry an offense, their run game is vertically non existent this season, don't argue with me on that I had Blount on my fantasy team. Wilson to going to be top 3 of his era I think, along with Luck, and either Newton, Tannihill, Cousins, Carr, or like Boartles or something. But he isn't in the top group just yet, for a lot of the reasons you say Brady is bad, he was carried by a STELLER defense, a great O-line, and a great running back to his first Super Bowl win and his second appearance, he can't be considered along with those guys until he is carrying an offense.

Wilson is a different type of QB. I agree that doesn't make him better.

What makes him better is the fact that he has more difference making skills.

It's easy to argue he's as good as Brady, and better in fact. He throws fewer passes but is more productive with what he does throw. Then there's that little fact that he's far more skilled.

Can you just look at your arguments for why Brady is bad, and apply that same thinking to Wilson. Great defense, Great O-Line, Great running back, Great/ good recievers, it's a system perfectly fit for him. I am not a fan of Brady, I don't like him, he deserves all of our respect though. Wilson is not far more skilled at passing.

Great OLine? Lol. Now I know you have no clue what you are talking about.

Pro football focus OLine rankings:




32. Seattle Seahawks (30th)
Pass blocking rank: 32nd

Run blocking rank: 29th

Penalties rank: 17th

Stud: Using the term “stud” loosely, it’s Russell Okung (60.9) for the Seahawks, the 35th-ranked NFL tackle this season. That still puts his Seahawks peers to shame.

Dud: There’s some strong competition here, but the play of Garry Gilliam (32.3) in his 515 snaps takes the win. Only five tackles have a lower grade this season.

Summary: Much has been made of the Seahawks’ struggles across the line, and you can’t say it’s unjustified. No line has a worse pass blocking efficiency score (they’ve combined to surrender 108 quarterback disruptions on 298 passing plays), and they’re not an awful much better in the run game. In Russell and Marshawn, they must trust.

Surprised no one in the sports world compared these two amazing catches:
A lifetime ago, in the late afternoon on Christmas Eve 1977, at old Memorial Stadium:

Ghost to the Post:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_to_the_Post

Stabler to Casper for 42 yards:
https://youtu.be/nPIGg6iu80E

Brady to Gronk for 40 yards:
http://www.patriots.com/video/2016/01/24/cant-miss-play-gronk-goes-big-fourth-down

On a side note, what an arm Bert Jones had. Career cut was short due to injury, busted his shoulder.

Posted by Trentonjoe on 2/1/2016 7:36:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bistiza on 2/1/2016 7:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Trentonjoe on 1/31/2016 6:54:00 PM (view original):
By favorite is the "gamble" by the DB in the super bowl, it was a quick slant route, every coach in America teaches what Butler did.......

You're kidding, right?

Butler had no idea what route was called - he guessed. That's the gamble he took. He just happened to be right. He got lucky. If he wasn't right, he just lost the game for his team - and given the other routes that could have been called, it's more likely he'd be wrong than right. It was a horribly play that just happened to work.

It's like placing a single bet on snake eyes at a craps table and it hits. It doesn't make it a good move - it just means you got lucky. Most of the time it will lose.

You couldn't be any more wrong..... the receiver took a hard inside cut on the first or second step, on the two yard line you jump that all day long, there really isn't a lot else he could do in man coverage...the fundamental rule of man to man defense on the goal line is  "don't get beat on the slant"......what other routes could be called?....a slant and up?  not a ton of space, a whip route? there was a immediate outside receiver?  Plus  I remember Butler (?) that was a goal line play they really prepared for.....

It was a horrible play call, and Wilson made a terrible throw.

The receiver's cut had him wide open - if Wilson doesn't lead him so much, either he catches the ball and if the Pats are lucky he's down short of the goal line or maybe it's off his hands incomplete.  Where Wilson threw it was as if he were throwing TO Butler.

Butler still gambled. Why? If the receiver cuts inside and then stops - and he very well could have done just that - Wilson likely him in the chest, he catches it and cuts away from the charging Butler, and it's an easy TD with the only other defender anywhere near the play being blocked.

Butler had to hope it was a quick slant. He had no way of knowing that to be the case, even after the receiver cuts, because this is the NFL. Receivers at this level can do so much more than at other levels. You can coach a high school kid to make that play all you want, and he probably won't get burned, but in the NFL, it's going to happen sometimes because receivers there are better at disguising routes (not on this play, but the point remains).

Seriously, watch the play. If the route was to disguise it as an inside slant and sit down, it's a walk into the end zone on the outside when Butler charges from the inside. Butler is an NFL defensive back - he's aware of the fact NFL receivers can disguise routes and chose to gamble by hoping that wasn't the case. He just happened to be correct on this play.

Posted by MonsterTurtl on 2/1/2016 11:12:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bistiza on 2/1/2016 7:33:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MonsterTurtl on 1/31/2016 8:26:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bistiza on 1/31/2016 6:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MonsterTurtl on 1/31/2016 5:52:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bistiza on 1/31/2016 10:10:00 AM (view original):

Posted by edsortails on 1/31/2016 6:56:00 AM (view original):
there is an old thread in the football forums where he did the same thing....to the point that mere Brady haters were finding themselves defending Brady against his rants

I've presented great arguments that Brady is over rated and not nearly as good as many people believe, and not one person has yet to come up with any kind of effective counter argument.

The stats don't lie. The facts don't either.

FACT: Brady has always had great coaching.

FACT: Brady has had good O-lines to play behind, and often great ones.

FACT: Brady throws shorter passes than other QBs, but is less accurate than others in the same era (see post earlier in this thread).

FACT: Brady has often played on teams which featured some of the top defenses in the NFL those years.

FACT: Brady has always played with receivers who were well-suited to the NE system of short passes and running after the catch.

FACT: Twice Brady has played with the best player in the NFL at their position catching his passes for multiple seasons (Randy Moss and Rob Gronkowski).

FACT: Brady caves under pressure from a pass rush, and is not listed as being in the top half of QBs when facing pressure (See earlier in the thread.)

FACT: When the Patriots lose in playoff games, it is typically Brady's fault, but it gets glossed over. (Last SB loss, he missed Welker on a throw that would have set up the win. Just last week had multiple interceptions and almost got bailed out by Gronkowski but still lost.)

FACT: When the Patriots win in playoff games, Brady gets all the credit even when he has little to do with it. (Last SB win, he's on the sidelines when the opposing coach makes a bad play call and a defender gambles and gets lucky.)

FACT: Brady has no difference making skills to speak of. No rocket arm, very little elusiveness, he can't shake tacklers well, can't throw downfield well, isn't fast or athletic and can't throw well on the run.

Fact: Wilson has had great coaching

Fact: Wilson plays behind a great offensive line

Fact: Wilson throws less passes than other QBs

Fact: Wilson plays on the team with the top defense in the NFL

Fact: Wilson has had some great recievers including arguably the best TE in the NFL Jimmy Grahem, a great playmaker in Percy Harvin, and a pretty darn good receiver in Doug Baldwin. He also doesn't throw down the field that often.

Fact: That is an opinion

Fact: Brady threw the ball to Gronk so it is not all Gronk. (That was a downfield pass btw, I thought he wasn't good at those)

Fact: Wilson threw the pick in the super bowl to lose the game while Brady was on the sideline.

Fact: that is an opinion

Fact: a lot of these so called "facts" are opinions

FACT: Wilson's "great coaching", while certainly better than average, actually cost his team the second of what should have been back to back Super Bowl titles.

FACT: Brady throws more passes than the average QB, because his team relies on dink and dunk passes more than other teams, and these are effectively the same as runs much of the time.

FACT: Graham isn't the best tight end in the NFL - that's Gronkowski.

FACT: Harvin and Baldwin aren't any better than most of the receivers Brady has had.

FACT: Any decent NFL QB can throw the ball up and let a great receiver like Gronkowski go after it. That's precisely the point - it's not Brady that is making the difference.

FACT: Wilson shouldn't have been passing at the end of the Super Bowl. It was a bad play call by his coach and a terrible gamble by the defender who got lucky because he happened to guess right (it's an easy TD if the guess is wrong, so it was a terrible gamble for the defender even though it worked out).

FACT: Nothing I said was fact is opinion. They are all demonstrated, and you haven't argued against any of them successfully.

Fact: that's one play call

Fact: that's still Brady making the passes, instead of in wilsons case the passes being non existent

Fact: That's opinion, Graham is a very good TE

Fact: yeah that's the point, Brady doesn't have better recievers.

Fact: it was a long pass deep down the field, with great placement, not everyone can make that throw, he deserves credit.

Fact: your argument there discredits yourself because you make it sound like a good play call.

Fact: gou should go back to your 6th grade English class and learn the difference between fact and opinion because "Brady always had good o lines" is an opinion, I don't think his o line this year is very good, as proven in the AFC championship game, Brady has no difference making skills to speak of is a opinion. Brady having little to do with their playoff wins is an opinion. Brady having everything to do with their playoff losses is an opinion. Brady caves under pressure from a pass rush is an opinion. I think you need to go back to English class. I haven't argued them successfully in your opinion, but to be fair nothing positive about Brady is acceptable in your opinion.

I seriously want to know what he has done to you

FACT: It was arguably the biggest play call in Carroll's (and his entire offensive coaching staff's) career.

FACT: You're now giving Brady credit for simply being the guy who threw the ball in situations where any decent NFL QB could have done the same - this is the very definition of over rating him.

FACT: No one seriously argues for Graham over Gronkowski as best TE in football.

FACT: Brady does have good receivers. Always has. They fit very well in the system NE plays, designed to minimize Brady's lack of difference making skills.

FACT: Placement? He tossed it up and let Gronkowski run under it. Most NFL QBs can make that throw.

FACT: It was a gamble of a play call, and a better gamble by the defender (as the situation turned out, anyway). Both were huge mistakes - the defender got lucky anyway, but ONLY because of an unnecessary gamble by Carroll.

FACT: The stats back up that Brady always had a good O-line. This was a year in flux for them, but most years he's had the guys to keep him protected quite well. I cited a few of those guys in previous posts.

FACT: I can cite you many times when Brady cost his team the game, and many more where he should have cost the game but someone else saved him. I've already done it in this thread several times. Heck, just look at this last game they lost to Denver - two interceptions and a whole lot of nothing from Brady except throw it up and let Gronk run under it.

There are plenty of positives about Brady. He's a good game manager QB who has managed not to screw up a lot of talented teams. Still, he does screw up his fair share of the time. Yet so many people want to call him great because he's Trent Dilfer from 2000 playing for many more seasons.

I'm just presenting the truth. Brady is the single most over rated player in the history of major pro sports.

On a scale of 1 - 100, with 100 being greatest ever and 0 being no good and out of the NFL right away...

Brady's over rated hype from most people would put him at about 95.

Brady's actual abilities put him at 60-65 or so.

That's a HUGE difference between hype and reality, one not matched by anyone else in any major pro sport.

I love how you didn't answer my response to your English inadequacy. You are avoiding the all of the questions you can't answer, redirecting, and insulting, you seem to me to either be a trump supporter or a Clinton supporter, you sure have their mannerisms. There seems to be a common theme of you mistaking luck for skill as well, reading routes is somthing those players work for years at, reading defenses is a hard thing to do as well, which Brady does very well.

You love how I didn't answer the part of your post which doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Great. I didn't answer because I honestly didn't think you'd expect me to answer that kind of nonsense.

I've addressed everything you said. It ruins your arguments so you understandably don't like it, but that doesn't mean I didn't answer.

What's funny is people like you mistake Brady being lucky and in fortunate situations as some kind of skill, yet you accuse me of mistaking luck for skill.

Posted by bistiza on 2/2/2016 3:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Trentonjoe on 2/1/2016 7:36:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bistiza on 2/1/2016 7:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Trentonjoe on 1/31/2016 6:54:00 PM (view original):
By favorite is the "gamble" by the DB in the super bowl, it was a quick slant route, every coach in America teaches what Butler did.......

You're kidding, right?

Butler had no idea what route was called - he guessed. That's the gamble he took. He just happened to be right. He got lucky. If he wasn't right, he just lost the game for his team - and given the other routes that could have been called, it's more likely he'd be wrong than right. It was a horribly play that just happened to work.

It's like placing a single bet on snake eyes at a craps table and it hits. It doesn't make it a good move - it just means you got lucky. Most of the time it will lose.

You couldn't be any more wrong..... the receiver took a hard inside cut on the first or second step, on the two yard line you jump that all day long, there really isn't a lot else he could do in man coverage...the fundamental rule of man to man defense on the goal line is  "don't get beat on the slant"......what other routes could be called?....a slant and up?  not a ton of space, a whip route? there was a immediate outside receiver?  Plus  I remember Butler (?) that was a goal line play they really prepared for.....

It was a horrible play call, and Wilson made a terrible throw.

The receiver's cut had him wide open - if Wilson doesn't lead him so much, either he catches the ball and if the Pats are lucky he's down short of the goal line or maybe it's off his hands incomplete.  Where Wilson threw it was as if he were throwing TO Butler.

Butler still gambled. Why? If the receiver cuts inside and then stops - and he very well could have done just that - Wilson likely him in the chest, he catches it and cuts away from the charging Butler, and it's an easy TD with the only other defender anywhere near the play being blocked.

Butler had to hope it was a quick slant. He had no way of knowing that to be the case, even after the receiver cuts, because this is the NFL. Receivers at this level can do so much more than at other levels. You can coach a high school kid to make that play all you want, and he probably won't get burned, but in the NFL, it's going to happen sometimes because receivers there are better at disguising routes (not on this play, but the point remains).

Seriously, watch the play. If the route was to disguise it as an inside slant and sit down, it's a walk into the end zone on the outside when Butler charges from the inside. Butler is an NFL defensive back - he's aware of the fact NFL receivers can disguise routes and chose to gamble by hoping that wasn't the case. He just happened to be correct on this play.

Your saying bad things about Wilson here, but you think he is better than Brady, interesting. Contradicting to say the least.

Posted by bistiza on 2/2/2016 3:34:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MonsterTurtl on 2/1/2016 11:12:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bistiza on 2/1/2016 7:33:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MonsterTurtl on 1/31/2016 8:26:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bistiza on 1/31/2016 6:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MonsterTurtl on 1/31/2016 5:52:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bistiza on 1/31/2016 10:10:00 AM (view original):

Posted by edsortails on 1/31/2016 6:56:00 AM (view original):
there is an old thread in the football forums where he did the same thing....to the point that mere Brady haters were finding themselves defending Brady against his rants

I've presented great arguments that Brady is over rated and not nearly as good as many people believe, and not one person has yet to come up with any kind of effective counter argument.

The stats don't lie. The facts don't either.

FACT: Brady has always had great coaching.

FACT: Brady has had good O-lines to play behind, and often great ones.

FACT: Brady throws shorter passes than other QBs, but is less accurate than others in the same era (see post earlier in this thread).

FACT: Brady has often played on teams which featured some of the top defenses in the NFL those years.

FACT: Brady has always played with receivers who were well-suited to the NE system of short passes and running after the catch.

FACT: Twice Brady has played with the best player in the NFL at their position catching his passes for multiple seasons (Randy Moss and Rob Gronkowski).

FACT: Brady caves under pressure from a pass rush, and is not listed as being in the top half of QBs when facing pressure (See earlier in the thread.)

FACT: When the Patriots lose in playoff games, it is typically Brady's fault, but it gets glossed over. (Last SB loss, he missed Welker on a throw that would have set up the win. Just last week had multiple interceptions and almost got bailed out by Gronkowski but still lost.)

FACT: When the Patriots win in playoff games, Brady gets all the credit even when he has little to do with it. (Last SB win, he's on the sidelines when the opposing coach makes a bad play call and a defender gambles and gets lucky.)

FACT: Brady has no difference making skills to speak of. No rocket arm, very little elusiveness, he can't shake tacklers well, can't throw downfield well, isn't fast or athletic and can't throw well on the run.

Fact: Wilson has had great coaching

Fact: Wilson plays behind a great offensive line

Fact: Wilson throws less passes than other QBs

Fact: Wilson plays on the team with the top defense in the NFL

Fact: Wilson has had some great recievers including arguably the best TE in the NFL Jimmy Grahem, a great playmaker in Percy Harvin, and a pretty darn good receiver in Doug Baldwin. He also doesn't throw down the field that often.

Fact: That is an opinion

Fact: Brady threw the ball to Gronk so it is not all Gronk. (That was a downfield pass btw, I thought he wasn't good at those)

Fact: Wilson threw the pick in the super bowl to lose the game while Brady was on the sideline.

Fact: that is an opinion

Fact: a lot of these so called "facts" are opinions

FACT: Wilson's "great coaching", while certainly better than average, actually cost his team the second of what should have been back to back Super Bowl titles.

FACT: Brady throws more passes than the average QB, because his team relies on dink and dunk passes more than other teams, and these are effectively the same as runs much of the time.

FACT: Graham isn't the best tight end in the NFL - that's Gronkowski.

FACT: Harvin and Baldwin aren't any better than most of the receivers Brady has had.

FACT: Any decent NFL QB can throw the ball up and let a great receiver like Gronkowski go after it. That's precisely the point - it's not Brady that is making the difference.

FACT: Wilson shouldn't have been passing at the end of the Super Bowl. It was a bad play call by his coach and a terrible gamble by the defender who got lucky because he happened to guess right (it's an easy TD if the guess is wrong, so it was a terrible gamble for the defender even though it worked out).

FACT: Nothing I said was fact is opinion. They are all demonstrated, and you haven't argued against any of them successfully.

Fact: that's one play call

Fact: that's still Brady making the passes, instead of in wilsons case the passes being non existent

Fact: That's opinion, Graham is a very good TE

Fact: yeah that's the point, Brady doesn't have better recievers.

Fact: it was a long pass deep down the field, with great placement, not everyone can make that throw, he deserves credit.

Fact: your argument there discredits yourself because you make it sound like a good play call.

Fact: gou should go back to your 6th grade English class and learn the difference between fact and opinion because "Brady always had good o lines" is an opinion, I don't think his o line this year is very good, as proven in the AFC championship game, Brady has no difference making skills to speak of is a opinion. Brady having little to do with their playoff wins is an opinion. Brady having everything to do with their playoff losses is an opinion. Brady caves under pressure from a pass rush is an opinion. I think you need to go back to English class. I haven't argued them successfully in your opinion, but to be fair nothing positive about Brady is acceptable in your opinion.

I seriously want to know what he has done to you

FACT: It was arguably the biggest play call in Carroll's (and his entire offensive coaching staff's) career.

FACT: You're now giving Brady credit for simply being the guy who threw the ball in situations where any decent NFL QB could have done the same - this is the very definition of over rating him.

FACT: No one seriously argues for Graham over Gronkowski as best TE in football.

FACT: Brady does have good receivers. Always has. They fit very well in the system NE plays, designed to minimize Brady's lack of difference making skills.

FACT: Placement? He tossed it up and let Gronkowski run under it. Most NFL QBs can make that throw.

FACT: It was a gamble of a play call, and a better gamble by the defender (as the situation turned out, anyway). Both were huge mistakes - the defender got lucky anyway, but ONLY because of an unnecessary gamble by Carroll.

FACT: The stats back up that Brady always had a good O-line. This was a year in flux for them, but most years he's had the guys to keep him protected quite well. I cited a few of those guys in previous posts.

FACT: I can cite you many times when Brady cost his team the game, and many more where he should have cost the game but someone else saved him. I've already done it in this thread several times. Heck, just look at this last game they lost to Denver - two interceptions and a whole lot of nothing from Brady except throw it up and let Gronk run under it.

There are plenty of positives about Brady. He's a good game manager QB who has managed not to screw up a lot of talented teams. Still, he does screw up his fair share of the time. Yet so many people want to call him great because he's Trent Dilfer from 2000 playing for many more seasons.

I'm just presenting the truth. Brady is the single most over rated player in the history of major pro sports.

On a scale of 1 - 100, with 100 being greatest ever and 0 being no good and out of the NFL right away...

Brady's over rated hype from most people would put him at about 95.

Brady's actual abilities put him at 60-65 or so.

That's a HUGE difference between hype and reality, one not matched by anyone else in any major pro sport.

I love how you didn't answer my response to your English inadequacy. You are avoiding the all of the questions you can't answer, redirecting, and insulting, you seem to me to either be a trump supporter or a Clinton supporter, you sure have their mannerisms. There seems to be a common theme of you mistaking luck for skill as well, reading routes is somthing those players work for years at, reading defenses is a hard thing to do as well, which Brady does very well.

You love how I didn't answer the part of your post which doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Great. I didn't answer because I honestly didn't think you'd expect me to answer that kind of nonsense.

I've addressed everything you said. It ruins your arguments so you understandably don't like it, but that doesn't mean I didn't answer.

What's funny is people like you mistake Brady being lucky and in fortunate situations as some kind of skill, yet you accuse me of mistaking luck for skill.

Saying what I am saying isn't true is like a three year old saying nuh uh to everything you say and it does not make you right.