Posted by shoe3 on 9/29/2019 3:15:00 PM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 9/29/2019 10:22:00 AM (view original):
Here's a topic that will surely spark things back up..... athletes as role models.

At one point in my life, I used to say that my favorite athletes in sports, were Barry Bonds, Allen Iverson, Mike Tyson, and Michael Vick. Now before some of you stone me for this, hear me out.... none of those people are role model citizens. But at the time of their peaks, I was an adult (except for Tyson. But keep reading). So I never looked up to them as great people. I just loved their performance on the field/court. It had nothing at all to do with what kind of human being they were. If those athletes were on my television, I would watch with amazement. If they were in my home, sure, it's a totally different standard. Me personally, I'm able to separate the two obviously. For me, sports is entertainment. And i don't wanna grow up to be just like these guys. Their talent can not be discredited. But neither can their downfalls in their personal lives.

So my question... what are some of your thoughts about athletes as role models? As a parent, how do you feel about your childrens interest in athletes like this? Where is a line drawn for you? Do you even have a line or do you have an issue with EVERY athlete that isn't perfect in life?

Reasonable people can disagree exactly where the line is, but it’s somewhere after smoking some weed and occasionally driving off at idle speed with traffic control officers clinging to the hood of your car (Randy Moss), and well before the terrible human being **** like beating women and children. It’s not reasonable for society to expect public figures to abstain from things like booze, gambling, and sex out of marriage; it is completely reasonable for society to expect public figures to abstain from rape.

I am pretty clear with my kids that athletes, actors, musicians, and YouTube personalities are not proper role models. Neither are CEOs, cops, military, lawyers, doctors, teachers, preachers, or self help-gurus. Hero worship in general is ridiculous. Treat everyone with respect, take what you need, leave their rest.

this is a good post, i agree - the whole concept of role model itself is flawed and unrealistic.

Growing up Tony Dorsett was my hero. I watched every Cowboys game, had several posters on the wall, cut his pictures out of Sports Illustrated magazines before my Dad could read them (I actually pulled out that folder today with some of those clippings). He was not pleased.
At that time, there was no social media (thank goodness), so I only really knew what was going on with TD on the football field. As I got older, and was following Micheal Jordan, ESPN was around to report on things that were going on off the field/court for athletes. Sometimes it would make me a bit leery, but I was solely worried about their athletic prowess. Nowadays, I honestly think it would be impossible for a kid to have an athlete as a hero or role model. There's too much exposure. I don't care what Cam Newton wears to press conferences, or what Russell Westbrook is wearing as he shows up for a game. Too. Much. Information.
I loved watching Vick on the field...he was Houdini getting past those defenders. Remember his Nike commercial that was supposed to be a roller coaster ride? I won't comment on his off-the-field actions...I wanted to see these guys score touchdowns or dunk the ball. Nothing else. Too much information.

Posted by gillispie1 on 9/29/2019 6:12:00 PM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 9/29/2019 1:04:00 PM (view original):
Well stated. Both of you. I surely didn't expect those responses for the first two that came up. I expected to hear.... if you like Mike Vick, you need to go to "wherever".....

I've always separated the athlete from the person. The difficulty is just with kids. People talk about athletes being role models. And I just don't see that. Kids are naive, and just like what they like. They aren't intelligent enough to make decisions like "I don't like Floyd Mayweather because he beats women". They don't see that side of it. Once they become old enough to hear the other side of the story on athletes, then it's time to discuss with them, as you said, athletes are human too. And it's ok to want to grow up to play sports like a certain athlete. But it's obviously not ok to mimic that persons real life if that person has a bad rep for one or many things

i actually disagree with part of that, although i think some parents make it a reality through hover parenting and treating kids like they are less capable than they are. kids are pretty smart and impressively resilient. my kids are still a little too young to grasp that much more than a good vs evil understanding of morality, but they are starting to (6 and 7). to me, the hope is, by the time the kids can relate to and start forming an adult-like understanding of concepts like rape or someone beating their girlfriend (which my kids cannot), we have already prepared them to have a somewhat nuanced view of human morality. that way, when they start to grasp 'hey, that person i otherwise like is kind of a piece of ****', they can properly process that information. i could be wrong, but it seems to me there is ample time to make that happen - for most kids.

in short, i don't think my kid liking some athlete, who later is discovered to be far less than perfect, is an excuse for them to emulate that behavior. kids don't even relate to the really bad stuff an athlete might do, to the point where they really could emulate it, until they are decently older - and by then, they need to know better, which is mostly on the parents.

the world is a dangerous place - our kids are going to be exposed to stuff WAY worse than 'hey that cool baseball player actually is a complete *******'. they need to be ready, and that cannot happen if they are overly sheltered. we have a similar problem with the modern nanny state, which dictates how we drive, which freedoms we can exercise, which substances we can imbibe, and so on.

i think we have to play the long game - teach a man to fish - and try to encourage our kids (and adults) to confront dangerous situations in a responsible manner. you can keep your kid in a bubble for a while, but eventually, the real world is going to come calling. its better to introduce that danger slowly, and in a relatively controlled manner - that way when something really bad does come along, there's a lot better chance of surviving it mostly intact. if our society would buy into that mentality, i think it would mostly eliminate the problem we are talking about here.

I agree with what you said. And I feel like it's basically the same thing I said but in less detail.... I think

Which part did you disagree with?

Posted by pallas on 9/24/2019 12:21:00 PM (view original):

Posted by p6453 on 9/24/2019 9:29:00 AM (view original):
This has to be the best thread EVER on here. I think it's great to learn about you guys away from the HD landscape. Sometimes I want to check the Forums BEFORE doing my team rundown just to make sure this thread is alive. But hey...I gotta do that rundown first.
I'm big into music. I can't play an instrument but love immersing myself in as much music as possible. Right now I'm listening to a lot from a band called Zero Theorem. In the past few weeks two singers who were a huge part of my youth have passed...Eddie Money and Ric Ocasek of The Cars. Ric's passing struck me really hard, as it seems the music of his band was pretty much a soundtrack of my childhood. I can remember their tunes playing on the radio all the time. And Eddie? Who DIDN'T have a school dance or Homecoming or Prom with the "Two Tickets to Paradise" theme? AHH..the days of my youth.
Even though it's been over two decades, I still may not be allowed in Elyria Ohio or on Kelleys Island located on Lake Erie due to a beer-fueled rampage I went on trying to track down the guy my first wife was seeing on the side. Yeah, I was married was before, lol. I was someone else back then.

Thanks for being part of it, Paul!

First, I'm glad you didn't end up retiring. And I hope your heath has been good the last couple years. This game is better with guys like you in it.

Tom Petty's death was the one that hit me hardest. I had a friend who was visiting Los Angeles when Petty did his last show at the Hollywood Bowl. She was there, not too many rows back. I was jealous of her in the moment, I'll be forever jealous of her. Stephen King turned 72 the other day. I'm already dreading the morning I wake up to the news of his death. He's my favorite writer, and it's not even close.

I looked up Zero Theorem. I didn't think I would like music that hit that hard. But I did. Good recommendation.

Tom Petty one of my favorites too. I was on golf team in college. Tennis guy across the hall was Todd Petty. One night after a few beers I started going on and on about how jealous I was and wished my name was Petty! haha he (and the heartbreakers) kept on making great music, but my favs are probably still breakdown and american girl.

Posted by gillispie1 on 9/24/2019 6:43:00 PM (view original):

Posted by p6453 on 9/24/2019 5:40:00 PM (view original):

Posted by geneferrell on 9/24/2019 5:28:00 PM (view original):
I love college hoops! For me it started in 1960 with The Ohio State University NCAA Champions, the Buckeyes! Jerry Lucas, John Havlicek, Larry Siegfried, Mel Nowell, Richie Hoyt, Bobby Knight, Doug McDonald and of course Coach Fred Taylor! I was 9 years old and fell in love with my Bucks! I can still hear announcer Jimmie Crum describing Lucas' hook shot as 'Johnson & Johnson, baby powder soft!' What a way to start out following college basketball! NCAA runners up to Cincinnati Bearcats the next 2 years!

For me, it's college hoops or nothing. WVU is my squad, but I'll watch just about any game, from D3 up to the big guys.

the first NT games i went to where i was able to be buying the tickets myself, it was up in syracuse, watching UK play a really lousy game against cornell before getting their rear ends handed to them by the huskies and that one fast little dude who i swear played at least 6 or 7 seasons. might have even hit double digits :) this was when UK had wall, cousins, patterson & co and started the WVU game on an 0-20 3pt streak. not my finest memory...

but after the cornell game, i hung over the railings like the little kids trying to slap the hands of the players (im not above it), and got all the seniors and all the starters. it was sweet. when patterson came off after the post game interview we had been waiting like 10 minutes to get him and he was like the greatest fan-hand-slapper of all time. super pumped. then cal was like, so... unamused, i suppose... at us calling to him. the polar opposite of patterson who was like cheering and jumping around and stuff. i suppose as the coach, he was more concerned about how bad the team just played and the fact they won was little consolation. but it came across as cal murdering us (mostly kids under 12) with his eyes.

anyway, the important thing in all of this, what is up with that dude who was at WVU for 7 or 8 seasons? not to make this a math thread like so many others, but isn't that too many?

that game WAS one of MY finest memories, despite the end of the cinderella run for the Red. time with my dad was great no matter the outcome.

Never realized you were there Gil!

Went to the WVU game too...with no idea that my daughter would later go to school there for 4 years and graduate from WVU.

Posted by topdogggbm on 9/29/2019 9:39:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 9/29/2019 6:12:00 PM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 9/29/2019 1:04:00 PM (view original):
Well stated. Both of you. I surely didn't expect those responses for the first two that came up. I expected to hear.... if you like Mike Vick, you need to go to "wherever".....

I've always separated the athlete from the person. The difficulty is just with kids. People talk about athletes being role models. And I just don't see that. Kids are naive, and just like what they like. They aren't intelligent enough to make decisions like "I don't like Floyd Mayweather because he beats women". They don't see that side of it. Once they become old enough to hear the other side of the story on athletes, then it's time to discuss with them, as you said, athletes are human too. And it's ok to want to grow up to play sports like a certain athlete. But it's obviously not ok to mimic that persons real life if that person has a bad rep for one or many things

i actually disagree with part of that, although i think some parents make it a reality through hover parenting and treating kids like they are less capable than they are. kids are pretty smart and impressively resilient. my kids are still a little too young to grasp that much more than a good vs evil understanding of morality, but they are starting to (6 and 7). to me, the hope is, by the time the kids can relate to and start forming an adult-like understanding of concepts like rape or someone beating their girlfriend (which my kids cannot), we have already prepared them to have a somewhat nuanced view of human morality. that way, when they start to grasp 'hey, that person i otherwise like is kind of a piece of ****', they can properly process that information. i could be wrong, but it seems to me there is ample time to make that happen - for most kids.

in short, i don't think my kid liking some athlete, who later is discovered to be far less than perfect, is an excuse for them to emulate that behavior. kids don't even relate to the really bad stuff an athlete might do, to the point where they really could emulate it, until they are decently older - and by then, they need to know better, which is mostly on the parents.

the world is a dangerous place - our kids are going to be exposed to stuff WAY worse than 'hey that cool baseball player actually is a complete *******'. they need to be ready, and that cannot happen if they are overly sheltered. we have a similar problem with the modern nanny state, which dictates how we drive, which freedoms we can exercise, which substances we can imbibe, and so on.

i think we have to play the long game - teach a man to fish - and try to encourage our kids (and adults) to confront dangerous situations in a responsible manner. you can keep your kid in a bubble for a while, but eventually, the real world is going to come calling. its better to introduce that danger slowly, and in a relatively controlled manner - that way when something really bad does come along, there's a lot better chance of surviving it mostly intact. if our society would buy into that mentality, i think it would mostly eliminate the problem we are talking about here.

I agree with what you said. And I feel like it's basically the same thing I said but in less detail.... I think

Which part did you disagree with?

eh, maybe i read too fast. you are right, i rescind my disagreement!

Posted by oldave on 9/29/2019 10:44:00 PM (view original):

Posted by pallas on 9/24/2019 12:21:00 PM (view original):

Posted by p6453 on 9/24/2019 9:29:00 AM (view original):
This has to be the best thread EVER on here. I think it's great to learn about you guys away from the HD landscape. Sometimes I want to check the Forums BEFORE doing my team rundown just to make sure this thread is alive. But hey...I gotta do that rundown first.
I'm big into music. I can't play an instrument but love immersing myself in as much music as possible. Right now I'm listening to a lot from a band called Zero Theorem. In the past few weeks two singers who were a huge part of my youth have passed...Eddie Money and Ric Ocasek of The Cars. Ric's passing struck me really hard, as it seems the music of his band was pretty much a soundtrack of my childhood. I can remember their tunes playing on the radio all the time. And Eddie? Who DIDN'T have a school dance or Homecoming or Prom with the "Two Tickets to Paradise" theme? AHH..the days of my youth.
Even though it's been over two decades, I still may not be allowed in Elyria Ohio or on Kelleys Island located on Lake Erie due to a beer-fueled rampage I went on trying to track down the guy my first wife was seeing on the side. Yeah, I was married was before, lol. I was someone else back then.

Thanks for being part of it, Paul!

First, I'm glad you didn't end up retiring. And I hope your heath has been good the last couple years. This game is better with guys like you in it.

Tom Petty's death was the one that hit me hardest. I had a friend who was visiting Los Angeles when Petty did his last show at the Hollywood Bowl. She was there, not too many rows back. I was jealous of her in the moment, I'll be forever jealous of her. Stephen King turned 72 the other day. I'm already dreading the morning I wake up to the news of his death. He's my favorite writer, and it's not even close.

I looked up Zero Theorem. I didn't think I would like music that hit that hard. But I did. Good recommendation.

Tom Petty one of my favorites too. I was on golf team in college. Tennis guy across the hall was Todd Petty. One night after a few beers I started going on and on about how jealous I was and wished my name was Petty! haha he (and the heartbreakers) kept on making great music, but my favs are probably still breakdown and american girl.

American Girl...My favorite.

tom petty is awesome, i was a big fan of his earlier work and the travelling wilburys for a long time. i had only started listening to some of his newer stuff (90s on) when he started making music again with mudcrutch and their songs were playing on his siriusxm channel. his passing kept me on that path, and i've got to say, i was pretty surprised. most of his more recent albums weren't that acclaimed and i never bothered to track them down, but i think the world got it wrong. he has been consistently excellent this whole time! i just never knew it until about a year ago. most of the new stuff i listen to from old greats just doesn't live up to their greatness - but TP is definitely an exception in my book.

just for an example or two, i was sort of shocked when i found out when wildflowers came out. echo was supposed to suck (i guess) but i loved it, its become one of my favorites. except that billy the kid song, that is just weird. almost like it was an early version of 'swinging' that was made infinitely better by the time it became swinging, and the demo version should have been lost forever but someone screwed up and put it on the album.

I'd like to extend the role model discussion to this question: are there any people in sports or entertainment that you have stopped watching because of things they have done outside of their jobs? If not, what would one of your favorite athletes or entertainers have to do for you to stop watching or listening to them perform their craft? - or rooting for them if they are in sports?

On the one hand, in their heyday I was a huge Guns n' Roses fan in spite of my distaste for Axl's long, well-documented list of crazy views and objectionable behavior. But on the other hand, ever since Mel Gibson exposed himself as a crazy anti-Semite I have not watched a single one of his movies. This may be because I like GnR's music a lot more than I like Mel Gibson's movies, but then that seems pretty hypocritical. So I don't know... is there a sliding scale of how much stuff you'll put up with from a public figure before losing patience and 'quitting' them, and is the scale directly related to how much you like their performances?

Posted by davis on 9/30/2019 2:57:00 PM (view original):
I'd like to extend the role model discussion to this question: are there any people in sports or entertainment that you have stopped watching because of things they have done outside of their jobs? If not, what would one of your favorite athletes or entertainers have to do for you to stop watching or listening to them perform their craft? - or rooting for them if they are in sports?

On the one hand, in their heyday I was a huge Guns n' Roses fan in spite of my distaste for Axl's long, well-documented list of crazy views and objectionable behavior. But on the other hand, ever since Mel Gibson exposed himself as a crazy anti-Semite I have not watched a single one of his movies. This may be because I like GnR's music a lot more than I like Mel Gibson's movies, but then that seems pretty hypocritical. So I don't know... is there a sliding scale of how much stuff you'll put up with from a public figure before losing patience and 'quitting' them, and is the scale directly related to how much you like their performances?

i think its a good question, and i think music is a good place to explore this. the thing about athletes, they age and go away naturally - and if they do really bad stuff, the league usually pushes them out before they'd cross a lot of people's lines for being too toxic for viewing. but music lives on forever. same with literature and lots of other art.

i think for me it depends on how much i care. if it comes out that paul mccartney is a serial rapist and murderer, i'd still listen to the beatles. my take is that most great musicians are pretty screwed up individuals. actually i think most great artists are, seems they need to keenly feel that pain and suffering. its just like the abe lincoln thing with folks without vices having few virtues. you have to keenly feel that pull between good and evil, and choose good, to have actually done something good. ok i guess thats not the same but its kind of similar-ish. i guess my point is, in both cases, without the bad there is no good. and expecting otherwise is just naive, under my world view. so for me, the line is somewhere in that range of like, if you murder my family, i'll probably stop listening to your music - but it depends how much i liked it in the first place?

Posted by davis on 9/30/2019 2:57:00 PM (view original):
I'd like to extend the role model discussion to this question: are there any people in sports or entertainment that you have stopped watching because of things they have done outside of their jobs? If not, what would one of your favorite athletes or entertainers have to do for you to stop watching or listening to them perform their craft? - or rooting for them if they are in sports?

On the one hand, in their heyday I was a huge Guns n' Roses fan in spite of my distaste for Axl's long, well-documented list of crazy views and objectionable behavior. But on the other hand, ever since Mel Gibson exposed himself as a crazy anti-Semite I have not watched a single one of his movies. This may be because I like GnR's music a lot more than I like Mel Gibson's movies, but then that seems pretty hypocritical. So I don't know... is there a sliding scale of how much stuff you'll put up with from a public figure before losing patience and 'quitting' them, and is the scale directly related to how much you like their performances?

Good question, davis. This was actually immediately where my mind went when I was reading the first few posts on this topic.

Mostly, for me, separating Bill Cosby the man from the comedy and Michael Jackson (though I don't think he was ever actually found guilty, but the court of public opinion is tougher than the court of law) from the music.

As I have gotten older, it's been easier for me to separate the art. Obviously what Bill Cosby did to those women is reprehensible. But I still laugh every time I put on any of his comedy and it puts me in a better mood when I'm down. Also I've I've grown, I've begun to think famous people -- whether they be athletes or musicians or actors or whatever -- ought not to be role models. Thinking that they are somehow less flawed because they are in positions of power is unfair. Unfair to them and unfair to everyone else. You don't magically get a moral compass when you get famous if you didn't have one before.

I admired athletes and actors when I was young, just like all of us. But I didn't look to them for a blueprint of how I should live my life. Two vastly different things, in my opinion.

Michael Jackson is an excellent discussion for the music topic just brought up. And in may dig into that discussion in a bit. But this HAS to be discussed in this thread!!!!

Fair Pay to Play Act..... WOW. I'll pass the mic. Someone start us off! Thoughts? Is it the end of the college sports as we know it? Will college sports just continue as is and we won't even notice a difference, since it happens behind closed doors already?

(Crickets.....) hmmmm.... apparently that's for another thread. Haha

I am for this act for sure

Whatever they have to do to bring back some EA Sports college football and basketball games for Xbox One I'm good with.
Seriously, I'm in the middle of whether or not they should get some type of payment. On one hand they help generate millions of dollars. On the other hand they're at school for free. There are great arguments for both sides.