I'm not saying we should disregard that.  But if we are going to compare pitchers over their careers, we need to use stats.  We might as well use stats that more accurately reflect actual skill.

Posted by jrd_x on 6/25/2012 2:01:00 PM (view original):
The defense can't catch a HR. The credit for allowing that HR rests solely with the pitcher.

Is FIP park adjusted?   Because, as you know(I hope), all homers aren't created equally.    A HR to RF in Yankee or LF at Fenway are just outs in a lot of places.

Posted by jrd_x on 6/25/2012 2:03:00 PM (view original):
I'm not saying we should disregard that.  But if we are going to compare pitchers over their careers, we need to use stats.  We might as well use stats that more accurately reflect actual skill.

So the ability to locate pitches is not a skill worth evaluating?

Posted by MikeT23 on 6/25/2012 2:04:00 PM (view original):

Posted by jrd_x on 6/25/2012 2:01:00 PM (view original):
The defense can't catch a HR. The credit for allowing that HR rests solely with the pitcher.

Is FIP park adjusted?   Because, as you know(I hope), all homers aren't created equally.    A HR to RF in Yankee or LF at Fenway are just outs in a lot of places.

FIP is not park adjusted.

Posted by MikeT23 on 6/25/2012 2:04:00 PM (view original):

Posted by jrd_x on 6/25/2012 2:03:00 PM (view original):
I'm not saying we should disregard that.  But if we are going to compare pitchers over their careers, we need to use stats.  We might as well use stats that more accurately reflect actual skill.

So the ability to locate pitches is not a skill worth evaluating?

It is.  But once again, even a well located pitch hit into play can become a hit.

Posted by jrd_x on 6/25/2012 1:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 6/25/2012 1:48:00 PM (view original):

Posted by jrd_x on 6/25/2012 12:53:00 PM (view original):
Are you just mad that I posted a picture of your titties?

If you have an argument that Nettles was better than Arod, great.  If not, STFU.

Nettles was a better third baseman defensively than ARod.

ARod is a better hitter than Nettles.

Nettles was one of the core players of the 1970's Yankees that won a couple of WS.

ARod was one of the core players of the 2000's Yankees that won a WS.

Context.

OK.

Stats give you context too.  Nettles played for the Yankees over 30 years ago.  Even if you watched every defensive play he was ever involved in, your memory might be a little fuzzy.

Nettles was very good defensively but we can look at the stats and see that the runs he saved with his glove were not nearly enough to overcome the advantage Arod has with the runs created with his bat.

Context.

The 2000's are a much more offense-oriented era than were the 1970's.  Defense provided more leverage in Nettles' time.  By looking at ARod's stats and saying that his runs created with his bat outweighs the total contribution of Nettles' defense+offense in the 70's disregards the context of Nettles' contributions to his team.
 
Plus, my memory is very good.  I watched a lot of Nettles in the 70's.

Posted by jrd_x on 6/25/2012 2:01:00 PM (view original):
The defense can't catch a HR. The credit for allowing that HR rests solely with the pitcher.

So a pitcher has 100% responsibility for a ball that clears the wall by a foot, but has 0% responsibility for a ball that falls short of the wall by a foot?

Do you realize how stupid that sounds?

Posted by tecwrg on 6/25/2012 2:06:00 PM (view original):

Posted by jrd_x on 6/25/2012 1:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 6/25/2012 1:48:00 PM (view original):

Posted by jrd_x on 6/25/2012 12:53:00 PM (view original):
Are you just mad that I posted a picture of your titties?

If you have an argument that Nettles was better than Arod, great.  If not, STFU.

Nettles was a better third baseman defensively than ARod.

ARod is a better hitter than Nettles.

Nettles was one of the core players of the 1970's Yankees that won a couple of WS.

ARod was one of the core players of the 2000's Yankees that won a WS.

Context.

OK.

Stats give you context too.  Nettles played for the Yankees over 30 years ago.  Even if you watched every defensive play he was ever involved in, your memory might be a little fuzzy.

Nettles was very good defensively but we can look at the stats and see that the runs he saved with his glove were not nearly enough to overcome the advantage Arod has with the runs created with his bat.

Context.

The 2000's are a much more offense-oriented era than were the 1970's.  Defense provided more leverage in Nettles' time.  By looking at ARod's stats and saying that his runs created with his bat outweighs the total contribution of Nettles' defense+offense in the 70's disregards the context of Nettles' contributions to his team.
 
Plus, my memory is very good.  I watched a lot of Nettles in the 70's.

Yes, era adjusted offensive number still show Arod as the far superior offensive player.  I think Nettles OPS+ with the Yankees was something like 114.

Defensive stats agree that Nettles was very good.  Just not good enough to make him better than one of greatest players of all time.

Posted by jrd_x on 6/25/2012 2:04:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 6/25/2012 2:04:00 PM (view original):

Posted by jrd_x on 6/25/2012 2:01:00 PM (view original):
The defense can't catch a HR. The credit for allowing that HR rests solely with the pitcher.

Is FIP park adjusted?   Because, as you know(I hope), all homers aren't created equally.    A HR to RF in Yankee or LF at Fenway are just outs in a lot of places.

FIP is not park adjusted.

So it's really pretty useless when evaluating pitchers, isn't it?  As has been noted, homers are as much luck and park effects as any other hit/out is affected by defense.   So, I guess, it's only fair to remove homers from FIP.   Now it's just BB and K.  

Posted by jrd_x on 6/25/2012 2:05:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 6/25/2012 2:04:00 PM (view original):

Posted by jrd_x on 6/25/2012 2:03:00 PM (view original):
I'm not saying we should disregard that.  But if we are going to compare pitchers over their careers, we need to use stats.  We might as well use stats that more accurately reflect actual skill.

So the ability to locate pitches is not a skill worth evaluating?

It is.  But once again, even a well located pitch hit into play can become a hit.

Would you say hitters get more hits on balls struck in the meat of the plate as opposed to low and away?

Posted by tecwrg on 6/25/2012 2:08:00 PM (view original):

Posted by jrd_x on 6/25/2012 2:01:00 PM (view original):
The defense can't catch a HR. The credit for allowing that HR rests solely with the pitcher.

So a pitcher has 100% responsibility for a ball that clears the wall by a foot, but has 0% responsibility for a ball that falls short of the wall by a foot?

Do you realize how stupid that sounds?

No, he has 100% responsibility for the HR and partial responsibility for the ball caught by the outfielder.  But no one really knows how much partial credit he should get.

Should he get the same credit for all fly ball outs, like ERA gives him?  Is the routine pop fly to the left fielder the same as the shot in the gap that the centerfielder catches in a dive?  Of course not.

Posted by MikeT23 on 6/25/2012 2:10:00 PM (view original):

Posted by jrd_x on 6/25/2012 2:04:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 6/25/2012 2:04:00 PM (view original):

Posted by jrd_x on 6/25/2012 2:01:00 PM (view original):
The defense can't catch a HR. The credit for allowing that HR rests solely with the pitcher.

Is FIP park adjusted?   Because, as you know(I hope), all homers aren't created equally.    A HR to RF in Yankee or LF at Fenway are just outs in a lot of places.

FIP is not park adjusted.

So it's really pretty useless when evaluating pitchers, isn't it?  As has been noted, homers are as much luck and park effects as any other hit/out is affected by defense.   So, I guess, it's only fair to remove homers from FIP.   Now it's just BB and K.  

Most HR aren't fence scrappers, but you have a point.  There are a lot of people working with batted ball data now in an attempt to quantify that.

Posted by jrd_x on 6/25/2012 2:13:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 6/25/2012 2:08:00 PM (view original):

Posted by jrd_x on 6/25/2012 2:01:00 PM (view original):
The defense can't catch a HR. The credit for allowing that HR rests solely with the pitcher.

So a pitcher has 100% responsibility for a ball that clears the wall by a foot, but has 0% responsibility for a ball that falls short of the wall by a foot?

Do you realize how stupid that sounds?

No, he has 100% responsibility for the HR and partial responsibility for the ball caught by the outfielder.  But no one really knows how much partial credit he should get.

Should he get the same credit for all fly ball outs, like ERA gives him?  Is the routine pop fly to the left fielder the same as the shot in the gap that the centerfielder catches in a dive?  Of course not.

And this leads to one of my arguments about FIP and it's use.  Most pop flies are caught.  Most screaming liners are not.  To give no credit to the pitcher whatsoever on the weak pop up is silly.

That said, I do like the stat for reasons I've told you before. 

Posted by MikeT23 on 6/25/2012 2:12:00 PM (view original):

Posted by jrd_x on 6/25/2012 2:05:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 6/25/2012 2:04:00 PM (view original):

Posted by jrd_x on 6/25/2012 2:03:00 PM (view original):
I'm not saying we should disregard that.  But if we are going to compare pitchers over their careers, we need to use stats.  We might as well use stats that more accurately reflect actual skill.

So the ability to locate pitches is not a skill worth evaluating?

It is.  But once again, even a well located pitch hit into play can become a hit.

Would you say hitters get more hits on balls struck in the meat of the plate as opposed to low and away?

Sure, but we've been over this before.  By your logic, BABIP for great pitchers would always be lower than mediocre or bad pitchers.  But it isn't.  Even more telling, it usually varies from year to year for individual pitchers.  Much more so than ERA.