Posted by bistiza on 2/2/2016 3:34:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MonsterTurtl on 2/1/2016 11:12:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bistiza on 2/1/2016 7:33:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MonsterTurtl on 1/31/2016 8:26:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bistiza on 1/31/2016 6:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MonsterTurtl on 1/31/2016 5:52:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bistiza on 1/31/2016 10:10:00 AM (view original):

Posted by edsortails on 1/31/2016 6:56:00 AM (view original):
there is an old thread in the football forums where he did the same thing....to the point that mere Brady haters were finding themselves defending Brady against his rants

I've presented great arguments that Brady is over rated and not nearly as good as many people believe, and not one person has yet to come up with any kind of effective counter argument.

The stats don't lie. The facts don't either.

FACT: Brady has always had great coaching.

FACT: Brady has had good O-lines to play behind, and often great ones.

FACT: Brady throws shorter passes than other QBs, but is less accurate than others in the same era (see post earlier in this thread).

FACT: Brady has often played on teams which featured some of the top defenses in the NFL those years.

FACT: Brady has always played with receivers who were well-suited to the NE system of short passes and running after the catch.

FACT: Twice Brady has played with the best player in the NFL at their position catching his passes for multiple seasons (Randy Moss and Rob Gronkowski).

FACT: Brady caves under pressure from a pass rush, and is not listed as being in the top half of QBs when facing pressure (See earlier in the thread.)

FACT: When the Patriots lose in playoff games, it is typically Brady's fault, but it gets glossed over. (Last SB loss, he missed Welker on a throw that would have set up the win. Just last week had multiple interceptions and almost got bailed out by Gronkowski but still lost.)

FACT: When the Patriots win in playoff games, Brady gets all the credit even when he has little to do with it. (Last SB win, he's on the sidelines when the opposing coach makes a bad play call and a defender gambles and gets lucky.)

FACT: Brady has no difference making skills to speak of. No rocket arm, very little elusiveness, he can't shake tacklers well, can't throw downfield well, isn't fast or athletic and can't throw well on the run.

Fact: Wilson has had great coaching

Fact: Wilson plays behind a great offensive line

Fact: Wilson throws less passes than other QBs

Fact: Wilson plays on the team with the top defense in the NFL

Fact: Wilson has had some great recievers including arguably the best TE in the NFL Jimmy Grahem, a great playmaker in Percy Harvin, and a pretty darn good receiver in Doug Baldwin. He also doesn't throw down the field that often.

Fact: That is an opinion

Fact: Brady threw the ball to Gronk so it is not all Gronk. (That was a downfield pass btw, I thought he wasn't good at those)

Fact: Wilson threw the pick in the super bowl to lose the game while Brady was on the sideline.

Fact: that is an opinion

Fact: a lot of these so called "facts" are opinions

FACT: Wilson's "great coaching", while certainly better than average, actually cost his team the second of what should have been back to back Super Bowl titles.

FACT: Brady throws more passes than the average QB, because his team relies on dink and dunk passes more than other teams, and these are effectively the same as runs much of the time.

FACT: Graham isn't the best tight end in the NFL - that's Gronkowski.

FACT: Harvin and Baldwin aren't any better than most of the receivers Brady has had.

FACT: Any decent NFL QB can throw the ball up and let a great receiver like Gronkowski go after it. That's precisely the point - it's not Brady that is making the difference.

FACT: Wilson shouldn't have been passing at the end of the Super Bowl. It was a bad play call by his coach and a terrible gamble by the defender who got lucky because he happened to guess right (it's an easy TD if the guess is wrong, so it was a terrible gamble for the defender even though it worked out).

FACT: Nothing I said was fact is opinion. They are all demonstrated, and you haven't argued against any of them successfully.

Fact: that's one play call

Fact: that's still Brady making the passes, instead of in wilsons case the passes being non existent

Fact: That's opinion, Graham is a very good TE

Fact: yeah that's the point, Brady doesn't have better recievers.

Fact: it was a long pass deep down the field, with great placement, not everyone can make that throw, he deserves credit.

Fact: your argument there discredits yourself because you make it sound like a good play call.

Fact: gou should go back to your 6th grade English class and learn the difference between fact and opinion because "Brady always had good o lines" is an opinion, I don't think his o line this year is very good, as proven in the AFC championship game, Brady has no difference making skills to speak of is a opinion. Brady having little to do with their playoff wins is an opinion. Brady having everything to do with their playoff losses is an opinion. Brady caves under pressure from a pass rush is an opinion. I think you need to go back to English class. I haven't argued them successfully in your opinion, but to be fair nothing positive about Brady is acceptable in your opinion.

I seriously want to know what he has done to you

FACT: It was arguably the biggest play call in Carroll's (and his entire offensive coaching staff's) career.

FACT: You're now giving Brady credit for simply being the guy who threw the ball in situations where any decent NFL QB could have done the same - this is the very definition of over rating him.

FACT: No one seriously argues for Graham over Gronkowski as best TE in football.

FACT: Brady does have good receivers. Always has. They fit very well in the system NE plays, designed to minimize Brady's lack of difference making skills.

FACT: Placement? He tossed it up and let Gronkowski run under it. Most NFL QBs can make that throw.

FACT: It was a gamble of a play call, and a better gamble by the defender (as the situation turned out, anyway). Both were huge mistakes - the defender got lucky anyway, but ONLY because of an unnecessary gamble by Carroll.

FACT: The stats back up that Brady always had a good O-line. This was a year in flux for them, but most years he's had the guys to keep him protected quite well. I cited a few of those guys in previous posts.

FACT: I can cite you many times when Brady cost his team the game, and many more where he should have cost the game but someone else saved him. I've already done it in this thread several times. Heck, just look at this last game they lost to Denver - two interceptions and a whole lot of nothing from Brady except throw it up and let Gronk run under it.

There are plenty of positives about Brady. He's a good game manager QB who has managed not to screw up a lot of talented teams. Still, he does screw up his fair share of the time. Yet so many people want to call him great because he's Trent Dilfer from 2000 playing for many more seasons.

I'm just presenting the truth. Brady is the single most over rated player in the history of major pro sports.

On a scale of 1 - 100, with 100 being greatest ever and 0 being no good and out of the NFL right away...

Brady's over rated hype from most people would put him at about 95.

Brady's actual abilities put him at 60-65 or so.

That's a HUGE difference between hype and reality, one not matched by anyone else in any major pro sport.

I love how you didn't answer my response to your English inadequacy. You are avoiding the all of the questions you can't answer, redirecting, and insulting, you seem to me to either be a trump supporter or a Clinton supporter, you sure have their mannerisms. There seems to be a common theme of you mistaking luck for skill as well, reading routes is somthing those players work for years at, reading defenses is a hard thing to do as well, which Brady does very well.

You love how I didn't answer the part of your post which doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Great. I didn't answer because I honestly didn't think you'd expect me to answer that kind of nonsense.

I've addressed everything you said. It ruins your arguments so you understandably don't like it, but that doesn't mean I didn't answer.

What's funny is people like you mistake Brady being lucky and in fortunate situations as some kind of skill, yet you accuse me of mistaking luck for skill.

Saying what I am saying isn't true is like a three year old saying nuh uh to everything you say and it does not make you right. I don't see any people agreeing with you, you can't honestly say that the majority of people in the world are that ignorant to think the exact opposite of what you say?

Posted by MonsterTurtl on 2/2/2016 5:02:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bistiza on 2/2/2016 3:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Trentonjoe on 2/1/2016 7:36:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bistiza on 2/1/2016 7:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Trentonjoe on 1/31/2016 6:54:00 PM (view original):
By favorite is the "gamble" by the DB in the super bowl, it was a quick slant route, every coach in America teaches what Butler did.......

You're kidding, right?

Butler had no idea what route was called - he guessed. That's the gamble he took. He just happened to be right. He got lucky. If he wasn't right, he just lost the game for his team - and given the other routes that could have been called, it's more likely he'd be wrong than right. It was a horribly play that just happened to work.

It's like placing a single bet on snake eyes at a craps table and it hits. It doesn't make it a good move - it just means you got lucky. Most of the time it will lose.

You couldn't be any more wrong..... the receiver took a hard inside cut on the first or second step, on the two yard line you jump that all day long, there really isn't a lot else he could do in man coverage...the fundamental rule of man to man defense on the goal line is  "don't get beat on the slant"......what other routes could be called?....a slant and up?  not a ton of space, a whip route? there was a immediate outside receiver?  Plus  I remember Butler (?) that was a goal line play they really prepared for.....

It was a horrible play call, and Wilson made a terrible throw.

The receiver's cut had him wide open - if Wilson doesn't lead him so much, either he catches the ball and if the Pats are lucky he's down short of the goal line or maybe it's off his hands incomplete.  Where Wilson threw it was as if he were throwing TO Butler.

Butler still gambled. Why? If the receiver cuts inside and then stops - and he very well could have done just that - Wilson likely him in the chest, he catches it and cuts away from the charging Butler, and it's an easy TD with the only other defender anywhere near the play being blocked.

Butler had to hope it was a quick slant. He had no way of knowing that to be the case, even after the receiver cuts, because this is the NFL. Receivers at this level can do so much more than at other levels. You can coach a high school kid to make that play all you want, and he probably won't get burned, but in the NFL, it's going to happen sometimes because receivers there are better at disguising routes (not on this play, but the point remains).

Seriously, watch the play. If the route was to disguise it as an inside slant and sit down, it's a walk into the end zone on the outside when Butler charges from the inside. Butler is an NFL defensive back - he's aware of the fact NFL receivers can disguise routes and chose to gamble by hoping that wasn't the case. He just happened to be correct on this play.

Your saying bad things about Wilson here, but you think he is better than Brady, interesting. Contradicting to say the least.

I said Wilson made a horrible throw on one particular play.

Considering all the evidence that says Wilson is better than Brady (see earlier posts), yes, he's better than Brady.

There is no contradiction there. You're trying to claim one because you have no argument.

You love how I didn't answer the part of your post which doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Great. I didn't answer because I honestly didn't think you'd expect me to answer that kind of nonsense.

I've addressed everything you said. It ruins your arguments so you understandably don't like it, but that doesn't mean I didn't answer.

What's funny is people like you mistake Brady being lucky and in fortunate situations as some kind of skill, yet you accuse me of mistaking luck for skill.

Saying what I am saying isn't true is like a three year old saying nuh uh to everything you say and it does not make you right. I don't see any people agreeing with you, you can't honestly say that the majority of people in the world are that ignorant to think the exact opposite of what you say?

No, saying what you are saying isn't true is simply telling the truth. The facts speak for themselves.

I don't care if anyone agrees with me. I don't need others agreement. Again, the facts speak for themselves.

In fact, that's the very definition of over rated - for people to think more of Brady than he actually is. He wouldn't be over rated if most people agreed with me and saw him for what he actually is.

Posted by bistiza on 2/2/2016 5:35:00 PM (view original):

You love how I didn't answer the part of your post which doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Great. I didn't answer because I honestly didn't think you'd expect me to answer that kind of nonsense.

I've addressed everything you said. It ruins your arguments so you understandably don't like it, but that doesn't mean I didn't answer.

What's funny is people like you mistake Brady being lucky and in fortunate situations as some kind of skill, yet you accuse me of mistaking luck for skill.

Saying what I am saying isn't true is like a three year old saying nuh uh to everything you say and it does not make you right. I don't see any people agreeing with you, you can't honestly say that the majority of people in the world are that ignorant to think the exact opposite of what you say?

No, saying what you are saying isn't true is simply telling the truth. The facts speak for themselves.

I don't care if anyone agrees with me. I don't need others agreement. Again, the facts speak for themselves.

In fact, that's the very definition of over rated - for people to think more of Brady than he actually is. He wouldn't be over rated if most people agreed with me and saw him for what he actually is.

If the facts speaked for themselves then everyone would agree with you.

Posted by bistiza on 2/2/2016 3:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Trentonjoe on 2/1/2016 7:36:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bistiza on 2/1/2016 7:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Trentonjoe on 1/31/2016 6:54:00 PM (view original):
By favorite is the "gamble" by the DB in the super bowl, it was a quick slant route, every coach in America teaches what Butler did.......

You're kidding, right?

Butler had no idea what route was called - he guessed. That's the gamble he took. He just happened to be right. He got lucky. If he wasn't right, he just lost the game for his team - and given the other routes that could have been called, it's more likely he'd be wrong than right. It was a horribly play that just happened to work.

It's like placing a single bet on snake eyes at a craps table and it hits. It doesn't make it a good move - it just means you got lucky. Most of the time it will lose.

You couldn't be any more wrong..... the receiver took a hard inside cut on the first or second step, on the two yard line you jump that all day long, there really isn't a lot else he could do in man coverage...the fundamental rule of man to man defense on the goal line is  "don't get beat on the slant"......what other routes could be called?....a slant and up?  not a ton of space, a whip route? there was a immediate outside receiver?  Plus  I remember Butler (?) that was a goal line play they really prepared for.....

It was a horrible play call, and Wilson made a terrible throw.

The receiver's cut had him wide open - if Wilson doesn't lead him so much, either he catches the ball and if the Pats are lucky he's down short of the goal line or maybe it's off his hands incomplete.  Where Wilson threw it was as if he were throwing TO Butler.

Butler still gambled. Why? If the receiver cuts inside and then stops - and he very well could have done just that - Wilson likely him in the chest, he catches it and cuts away from the charging Butler, and it's an easy TD with the only other defender anywhere near the play being blocked.

Butler had to hope it was a quick slant. He had no way of knowing that to be the case, even after the receiver cuts, because this is the NFL. Receivers at this level can do so much more than at other levels. You can coach a high school kid to make that play all you want, and he probably won't get burned, but in the NFL, it's going to happen sometimes because receivers there are better at disguising routes (not on this play, but the point remains).

Seriously, watch the play. If the route was to disguise it as an inside slant and sit down, it's a walk into the end zone on the outside when Butler charges from the inside. Butler is an NFL defensive back - he's aware of the fact NFL receivers can disguise routes and chose to gamble by hoping that wasn't the case. He just happened to be correct on this play.

I did watch the play, it was a catch and snap throw, the ball was out of wilson's hand in less than one second, his front shoulder indicated a slant, there was no reason (or time) to indicate it was anything other than a slant, I am not sure what Butler could have done different, you can't play soft on the goal line and in a slot stack formation like that he had to respect the slant first and foremost, if it's a slant and sit (which is not a good pattern vs man) Butler is still in great position because his angles is the insider shoulder of the WR, 

In the post-game interview, didn't Butler say he jumped the route because he saw the Seahawks run that exact play on the goal line multiple times this season?  I don't know why or how that even matters to all of this but I seem to remember him crediting film study to why he was so aggressive on that final play.

Posted by darnoc29099 on 2/2/2016 9:49:00 PM (view original):
In the post-game interview, didn't Butler say he jumped the route because he saw the Seahawks run that exact play on the goal line multiple times this season?  I don't know why or how that even matters to all of this but I seem to remember him crediting film study to why he was so aggressive on that final play.

Yes, great point, the Pats recognized the formation and Butler knew where the play was going. Good preparation.

By the way, did anyone find the 1977 Ghost To The Post thing interesting?

Posted by MonsterTurtl on 2/2/2016 6:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bistiza on 2/2/2016 5:35:00 PM (view original):

You love how I didn't answer the part of your post which doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Great. I didn't answer because I honestly didn't think you'd expect me to answer that kind of nonsense.

I've addressed everything you said. It ruins your arguments so you understandably don't like it, but that doesn't mean I didn't answer.

What's funny is people like you mistake Brady being lucky and in fortunate situations as some kind of skill, yet you accuse me of mistaking luck for skill.

Saying what I am saying isn't true is like a three year old saying nuh uh to everything you say and it does not make you right. I don't see any people agreeing with you, you can't honestly say that the majority of people in the world are that ignorant to think the exact opposite of what you say?

No, saying what you are saying isn't true is simply telling the truth. The facts speak for themselves.

I don't care if anyone agrees with me. I don't need others agreement. Again, the facts speak for themselves.

In fact, that's the very definition of over rated - for people to think more of Brady than he actually is. He wouldn't be over rated if most people agreed with me and saw him for what he actually is.

If the facts speaked for themselves then everyone would agree with you.

No, because most people don't actually examine the facts. They just believe the hype.

Posted by Trentonjoe on 2/2/2016 7:53:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bistiza on 2/2/2016 3:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Trentonjoe on 2/1/2016 7:36:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bistiza on 2/1/2016 7:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Trentonjoe on 1/31/2016 6:54:00 PM (view original):
By favorite is the "gamble" by the DB in the super bowl, it was a quick slant route, every coach in America teaches what Butler did.......

You're kidding, right?

Butler had no idea what route was called - he guessed. That's the gamble he took. He just happened to be right. He got lucky. If he wasn't right, he just lost the game for his team - and given the other routes that could have been called, it's more likely he'd be wrong than right. It was a horribly play that just happened to work.

It's like placing a single bet on snake eyes at a craps table and it hits. It doesn't make it a good move - it just means you got lucky. Most of the time it will lose.

You couldn't be any more wrong..... the receiver took a hard inside cut on the first or second step, on the two yard line you jump that all day long, there really isn't a lot else he could do in man coverage...the fundamental rule of man to man defense on the goal line is  "don't get beat on the slant"......what other routes could be called?....a slant and up?  not a ton of space, a whip route? there was a immediate outside receiver?  Plus  I remember Butler (?) that was a goal line play they really prepared for.....

It was a horrible play call, and Wilson made a terrible throw.

The receiver's cut had him wide open - if Wilson doesn't lead him so much, either he catches the ball and if the Pats are lucky he's down short of the goal line or maybe it's off his hands incomplete.  Where Wilson threw it was as if he were throwing TO Butler.

Butler still gambled. Why? If the receiver cuts inside and then stops - and he very well could have done just that - Wilson likely him in the chest, he catches it and cuts away from the charging Butler, and it's an easy TD with the only other defender anywhere near the play being blocked.

Butler had to hope it was a quick slant. He had no way of knowing that to be the case, even after the receiver cuts, because this is the NFL. Receivers at this level can do so much more than at other levels. You can coach a high school kid to make that play all you want, and he probably won't get burned, but in the NFL, it's going to happen sometimes because receivers there are better at disguising routes (not on this play, but the point remains).

Seriously, watch the play. If the route was to disguise it as an inside slant and sit down, it's a walk into the end zone on the outside when Butler charges from the inside. Butler is an NFL defensive back - he's aware of the fact NFL receivers can disguise routes and chose to gamble by hoping that wasn't the case. He just happened to be correct on this play.

I did watch the play, it was a catch and snap throw, the ball was out of wilson's hand in less than one second, his front shoulder indicated a slant, there was no reason (or time) to indicate it was anything other than a slant, I am not sure what Butler could have done different, you can't play soft on the goal line and in a slot stack formation like that he had to respect the slant first and foremost, if it's a slant and sit (which is not a good pattern vs man) Butler is still in great position because his angles is the insider shoulder of the WR, 

The play call was horrible - it should have been a Lynch run. Most people agree on that, and those who don't are kidding themselves.

The throw was terrible - Wilson lead him too much, almost as if he were throwing TO Butler, as I said.

Butler completely sold out on the slant. He's an NFL DB - he had plenty of time to wait half a second to make sure and still knock down a pass. Instead, he gambled and sold out to the point he put the entire game - the biggest of the year and probably his career - on the line on one play. If he is wrong, it's a TD and his team loses. If he is right, it's an interception and his team wins. It worked out for him, but if Belicheat was honest he'd say he doesn't like the idea of a DB playing a hunch and gambling the outcome of the Super Bowl on it.

I agree slant isn't good against man coverage most of the time - it only works well if the receiver can get inside his man and stay there. That was also part of the problem - in addition to a bad throw, the receiver didn't box Butler out of the play. Instead Butler knocks him over and takes the ball. If the receiver just plays rougher there, Butler falls over too - or the receiver might even catch it, knock Butler over, and score.

Posted by darnoc29099 on 2/2/2016 9:49:00 PM (view original):
In the post-game interview, didn't Butler say he jumped the route because he saw the Seahawks run that exact play on the goal line multiple times this season?  I don't know why or how that even matters to all of this but I seem to remember him crediting film study to why he was so aggressive on that final play.

Butler famously said "I just had a vision I'd make a big play" in the interview. That's his way of saying he gambled.

Or it isn't....that's a huge reach....he also said, "I got beat on the same play in practice"....That's his way of saying we prepped that play....

It's not a reach at all. He relied on a vision and gambled in an effort to make it happen.

I don't know if he said what you claim or not, but even if he did, it's not a shock that any NFL DB would practice working against slant routes in man coverage. That's pretty standard, really. It would be shocking if that weren't the case.

It changes nothing. He put the game of his career in his own hands on a questionable decision and happened to come out on the right end of it. That's gambling, and with incredibly high stakes.

You win.

This won't make the Seahawks or their fans feel any better: In the days leading up the Super Bowl -- and The Interception -- the Patriots' scout team ran the same pass play we saw from Seattle's offense late in the fourth quarter that made cornerback Malcolm Butler the unlikeliest of heroes.

And Butler was beaten.

“I was at practice, and the scout team ran the same exact play,” Butler told Dan Patrick on Wednesday, via PFT.com. “And I got beat on it at practice because I gave ground. ... Bill Belichick, he came and said to me, ‘Malcolm, you’ve gotta be on that.’”

Brady will be considered one of the best QB's of all time if not the best.  But he has a perception problem.  It's more than just the cheating.  It's people don't like him.  Likablility goes a long way when it comes to Legacies.  Michael Jordan will always be considered one of the best players ever, not just because of the championships, but because almost everyone liked him, even when he is was winning.

Tom Brady, 95% of the people think he's a crybaby and they do not like him.

I think Carolina is the best overall team, so I'm picking Carolina.   But this Denver defense is phenomenal.  They remind me of the Ravens, Bucanneers, and the 85 Bears teams who defensively dominated everyone they played.  So Denver's defense is special, but so is Cam Newton.