Derek Jeter's Last Stand Topic

burnsy483
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Posted by MikeT23 on 2/19/2014 1:22:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 2/19/2014 1:07:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/19/2014 1:03:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 2/19/2014 1:01:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/19/2014 12:56:00 PM (view original):
And, yeah, that's what I'm saying.   The Yanks go thru one of their most successful runs in their history.   By far the most successful run in baseball in the recent era.  Who, other than George, would be able to say "I think we're going to move you to LF next season"?
I get it, but it wouldn't have been the first time a future HOFer was moved.  I mean, ****, Ernie Banks moved to 1B in his early 30s.
Right after the Cubs won all those WS?
So because the Yankees won WS, they weren't interested in improving their team?  Why get A-Rod then, what you're doing works, right?

Already covered.  You have to read the thread.

BTW, if Boone doesn't wreck his knee playing hoops, the deal never happens.   Yanks told TX they weren't interested initially.  30 for 30 detailed the story recently.

Nah I'm good.  Banks moved because it made the Cubs better.  Jeter moving would have made the Yankees better.

I know the Boone story.
2/19/2014 1:27 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by dahsdebater on 2/19/2014 1:19:00 PM (view original):
Jeter moving to 3B wouldn't have worked, he doesn't have the reaction time.  A-Rod was definitely a better candidate for that move.  It should have been the outfield.
What makes you say that? His problem has always been his range. I'm sure that if Miguel Cabrera can play 3rd, Jeter could have figured it out.
2/19/2014 1:28 PM
burnsy483
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Posted by bad_luck on 2/19/2014 1:28:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dahsdebater on 2/19/2014 1:19:00 PM (view original):
Jeter moving to 3B wouldn't have worked, he doesn't have the reaction time.  A-Rod was definitely a better candidate for that move.  It should have been the outfield.
What makes you say that? His problem has always been his range. I'm sure that if Miguel Cabrera can play 3rd, Jeter could have figured it out.
I'd put quotes around the word "play" here.
2/19/2014 1:30 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by burnsy483 on 2/19/2014 1:30:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 2/19/2014 1:28:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dahsdebater on 2/19/2014 1:19:00 PM (view original):
Jeter moving to 3B wouldn't have worked, he doesn't have the reaction time.  A-Rod was definitely a better candidate for that move.  It should have been the outfield.
What makes you say that? His problem has always been his range. I'm sure that if Miguel Cabrera can play 3rd, Jeter could have figured it out.
I'd put quotes around the word "play" here.
Maybe not the best example.
2/19/2014 1:43 PM
toddcommish
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A shortstop with lousy range also affects the pitchers.  Jeter's range was typically almost 1 full chance worse than his peers.  That means 150+ balls that the average SS would get, bounced past (the diving) Jeter.  I'll give Jeter some credit for making a higher percentage of the plays for the balls he could reach, but that still leaves over 100 balls that he didn't get to....  

Don't you think 100 extra baserunners has SOME impact on the pitchers?  Is there an ERA measure (like they have for catchers) that compares ERA with Jeter vs. without Jeter?  I suppose it would be difficult because his omnipresence means everyone else is SSS.

Not sure his excellent offensive production counters that deficit.
2/19/2014 1:49 PM
dahsdebater
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Posted by bad_luck on 2/19/2014 1:28:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dahsdebater on 2/19/2014 1:19:00 PM (view original):
Jeter moving to 3B wouldn't have worked, he doesn't have the reaction time.  A-Rod was definitely a better candidate for that move.  It should have been the outfield.
What makes you say that? His problem has always been his range. I'm sure that if Miguel Cabrera can play 3rd, Jeter could have figured it out.
What do you think makes his range so problematic?  You frequently demonstrate the fact that you understand baseball statistics very well, and baseball as it actually happens on the field very poorly.  This is another one of those examples.  All you see is "bad range."  That has to stem from something.  Jeter has that jump throw that lets him makes outs from most balls he can reach.  He's not slow when he accelerates out of the batters box, it's not like he has a terrible first-step speed.  And he's not afraid to get dirty, rather famously.  So why doesn't he get to as many balls as a SS should?  Because he doesn't start that first step as quickly as he should.  His reaction to the ball off the bat is slow.  Corner infield spots are all about quick reactions.  Ergo, Jeter doesn't make sense at those spots.
2/19/2014 1:56 PM
bad_luck
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It does, at least for his career as a whole, it won't for the 2014 single season.

I think Jeter has a career WAR around 70. His offense more than made up for his below average defense.

Edit - I'm responding to todd
2/19/2014 1:57 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by dahsdebater on 2/19/2014 1:56:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 2/19/2014 1:28:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dahsdebater on 2/19/2014 1:19:00 PM (view original):
Jeter moving to 3B wouldn't have worked, he doesn't have the reaction time.  A-Rod was definitely a better candidate for that move.  It should have been the outfield.
What makes you say that? His problem has always been his range. I'm sure that if Miguel Cabrera can play 3rd, Jeter could have figured it out.
What do you think makes his range so problematic?  You frequently demonstrate the fact that you understand baseball statistics very well, and baseball as it actually happens on the field very poorly.  This is another one of those examples.  All you see is "bad range."  That has to stem from something.  Jeter has that jump throw that lets him makes outs from most balls he can reach.  He's not slow when he accelerates out of the batters box, it's not like he has a terrible first-step speed.  And he's not afraid to get dirty, rather famously.  So why doesn't he get to as many balls as a SS should?  Because he doesn't start that first step as quickly as he should.  His reaction to the ball off the bat is slow.  Corner infield spots are all about quick reactions.  Ergo, Jeter doesn't make sense at those spots.
If range is all reaction time, why don't good third basemen move to short?

Wouldn't Evan Longoria become one of the most valuable players in all of baseball if he took his excellent reactions (and, by your logic, amazing range) to short?

Why are so few big leaguers able to play short but so many able to play third?
2/19/2014 2:05 PM
dahsdebater
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What makes you think so many people are able to play third?

What makes you so stuck in tunnel-vision that you ignore most of what I say?  I said JETER has range issues because of reaction time.  I specifically referred to the fact that he is NOT slow and can accelerate quickly.  Longoria is much slower and accelerates much less quickly.  He would have range problems at SS for entirely different reasons.  It's like I said - no ability whatsoever to look at the game on the field rationally and come up with reasons why things happen the way they do...

But seriously, how many people do you think are good defensive third basemen?  I don't see all that many more than I do shortstops...
2/19/2014 2:09 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by dahsdebater on 2/19/2014 2:09:00 PM (view original):
What makes you think so many people are able to play third?

What makes you so stuck in tunnel-vision that you ignore most of what I say?  I said JETER has range issues because of reaction time.  I specifically referred to the fact that he is NOT slow and can accelerate quickly.  Longoria is much slower and accelerates much less quickly.  He would have range problems at SS for entirely different reasons.  It's like I said - no ability whatsoever to look at the game on the field rationally and come up with reasons why things happen the way they do...

But seriously, how many people do you think are good defensive third basemen?  I don't see all that many more than I do shortstops...
Compare the offensive output from third basemen to the offensive output at short.
2/19/2014 2:13 PM
tecwrg
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Posted by bad_luck on 2/19/2014 2:05:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dahsdebater on 2/19/2014 1:56:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 2/19/2014 1:28:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dahsdebater on 2/19/2014 1:19:00 PM (view original):
Jeter moving to 3B wouldn't have worked, he doesn't have the reaction time.  A-Rod was definitely a better candidate for that move.  It should have been the outfield.
What makes you say that? His problem has always been his range. I'm sure that if Miguel Cabrera can play 3rd, Jeter could have figured it out.
What do you think makes his range so problematic?  You frequently demonstrate the fact that you understand baseball statistics very well, and baseball as it actually happens on the field very poorly.  This is another one of those examples.  All you see is "bad range."  That has to stem from something.  Jeter has that jump throw that lets him makes outs from most balls he can reach.  He's not slow when he accelerates out of the batters box, it's not like he has a terrible first-step speed.  And he's not afraid to get dirty, rather famously.  So why doesn't he get to as many balls as a SS should?  Because he doesn't start that first step as quickly as he should.  His reaction to the ball off the bat is slow.  Corner infield spots are all about quick reactions.  Ergo, Jeter doesn't make sense at those spots.
If range is all reaction time, why don't good third basemen move to short?

Wouldn't Evan Longoria become one of the most valuable players in all of baseball if he took his excellent reactions (and, by your logic, amazing range) to short?

Why are so few big leaguers able to play short but so many able to play third?

Dumbass.

The third baseman is positioned closer to the hitter than the shortstop typically is.  Hard hit balls to third reach the third baseman quicker than hard hit balls to short reach the shortstop.  Hence, the third baseman needs quicker reaction time when the ball comes off the bat.  Ever hear of the baseball term "the hot corner".  I'm sorry that there's no advanced statistic for that term.

2/19/2014 2:13 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by tecwrg on 2/19/2014 2:13:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 2/19/2014 2:05:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dahsdebater on 2/19/2014 1:56:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 2/19/2014 1:28:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dahsdebater on 2/19/2014 1:19:00 PM (view original):
Jeter moving to 3B wouldn't have worked, he doesn't have the reaction time.  A-Rod was definitely a better candidate for that move.  It should have been the outfield.
What makes you say that? His problem has always been his range. I'm sure that if Miguel Cabrera can play 3rd, Jeter could have figured it out.
What do you think makes his range so problematic?  You frequently demonstrate the fact that you understand baseball statistics very well, and baseball as it actually happens on the field very poorly.  This is another one of those examples.  All you see is "bad range."  That has to stem from something.  Jeter has that jump throw that lets him makes outs from most balls he can reach.  He's not slow when he accelerates out of the batters box, it's not like he has a terrible first-step speed.  And he's not afraid to get dirty, rather famously.  So why doesn't he get to as many balls as a SS should?  Because he doesn't start that first step as quickly as he should.  His reaction to the ball off the bat is slow.  Corner infield spots are all about quick reactions.  Ergo, Jeter doesn't make sense at those spots.
If range is all reaction time, why don't good third basemen move to short?

Wouldn't Evan Longoria become one of the most valuable players in all of baseball if he took his excellent reactions (and, by your logic, amazing range) to short?

Why are so few big leaguers able to play short but so many able to play third?

Dumbass.

The third baseman is positioned closer to the hitter than the shortstop typically is.  Hard hit balls to third reach the third baseman quicker than hard hit balls to short reach the shortstop.  Hence, the third baseman needs quicker reaction time when the ball comes off the bat.  Ever hear of the baseball term "the hot corner".  I'm sorry that there's no advanced statistic for that term.

Thanks for the non-sequitur. The kiddie table is back and to your left.
2/19/2014 2:15 PM
tecwrg
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Oh, sorry.  You just seem massively confused by that since it involves understanding the game as played on the field rather than on the stat sheet.
2/19/2014 2:22 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by dahsdebater on 2/19/2014 2:09:00 PM (view original):
What makes you think so many people are able to play third?

What makes you so stuck in tunnel-vision that you ignore most of what I say?  I said JETER has range issues because of reaction time.  I specifically referred to the fact that he is NOT slow and can accelerate quickly.  Longoria is much slower and accelerates much less quickly.  He would have range problems at SS for entirely different reasons.  It's like I said - no ability whatsoever to look at the game on the field rationally and come up with reasons why things happen the way they do...

But seriously, how many people do you think are good defensive third basemen?  I don't see all that many more than I do shortstops...
There are many possible explanations for Jeter's lack of range. I think a fundamental flaw in his positioning is a good explanation. He played too shallow in order to get to the slowly hit grounders to allow him to get to balls hit deep between short and third or up the middle. He corrected that later in his career and started getting to more balls hit far left and right but then struggled with slow grounders.

I don't see any reason that he couldn't have handled the switch to third earlier in his career, though that would have been a dumb idea.
2/19/2014 2:30 PM
Jtpsops
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Posted by tecwrg on 2/19/2014 2:22:00 PM (view original):
Oh, sorry.  You just seem massively confused by that since it involves understanding the game as played on the field rather than on the stat sheet.
I'm beginning to think MikeT is retiring along with Jeter, because you're starting to look like his Mini Me. Looks like Mikey's got you groomed as his replacement on these boards.
2/19/2014 2:34 PM
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