I know you guys are big advocates of "watch the game, **** what stats say, use some common sense." If you hand a starting pitcher a baseball, and tell him "I need 9 innings from you today" or hand him a baseball and say "I need 3 outs." In which scenario do you think he'll pitch better in?

Posted by burnsy483 on 1/7/2015 2:04:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/7/2015 1:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 1/7/2015 1:06:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/7/2015 1:05:00 PM (view original):
I'm not sure "any HOF-caliber starter could be a good reliever."

There's a mind-set, a routine and an ability to recover.    A good pitcher is a good pitcher but I don't think the roles are interchangeable because MLB2k says they are.

I don't think they are interchangeable. I think there's a reason good relievers aren't transitioned into good starters. But you see so-so starters turn into good relievers pretty often.

I think the perception is there because so-so starters don't become so-so relievers.   They become AAA pitchers.    IOW, you see the successful transitions because they're in your face.   The failures are pitching in Peeduck, IA. 

A lot of so-so AAA pitchers become very good MLB relievers.  They're moved to the pen because they won't cut it as starters at the ML level.  Betances, Warren, for example. Bobby Parnell, Jenrry Mejia, Carlos Torres, Jeurys Familia on the other side of town. Christ, the Mets put Dice-K in the pen and he had a 3.44 ERA as a reliever.

You may have heard of Mariano Rivera?

Not ALL failed starters move to the pen, because it's more valuable to have a good starter than a good reliever, and a team doesn't necessarily want to give up on a starter. And often the guys in their 30s have pride issues and don't want to be a reliever. But you'll be hard-pressed to find many starters try to convert to relievers and get worse.

Wouldn't it be reasonably accurate to say "ALL pitchers start out as starters"?     When's the last time you saw a scouting report say "Fantastic HS reliever.  Saw him throw 11 pitches in the district championship and all looked unhittable"?

So, if you agree, isn't every failed pitcher in the minors a failed starter who couldn't/wouldn't convert to a reliever?   And wouldn't you say about 99% of them were open to the idea of relieving and either A) failed or B) weren't given the chance? 

Posted by burnsy483 on 1/7/2015 2:08:00 PM (view original):
I know you guys are big advocates of "watch the game, **** what stats say, use some common sense." If you hand a starting pitcher a baseball, and tell him "I need 9 innings from you today" or hand him a baseball and say "I need 3 outs." In which scenario do you think he'll pitch better in?

Don't know.    SP know they're throwing on Day 5.   They get in the cold tub the day after.   Fart around on the 2nd day.   Have a bullpen on the 3rd day.   Go shopping on the 4th day.   Then pitch.     Tell that guy sitting in the bullpen that he needs to be ready in 9 minutes and he might go "What?   I didn't even go shopping yesterday!!"

It's a different role with different preparation and a different mind-set. 

Three outs are easier than 27 but you prepare differently to get them.    It's like a hitter saying "Yeah, I can't DH.   I don't feel like I'm part of the game."

Lee Smith started his ML career as a starter. He had good stuff but still struggled a bit as a starter. He may have ended up being a good starter if the Cubs had been a little more patient with him. But i don't think he's complaining about how it turned out. Dennis Eckersley might have continued making a decent living as a starter but I doubt that he would have had as long and as fruitful a career if LaRussa hadn't talked him into making the move.

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/7/2015 2:17:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 1/7/2015 2:04:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/7/2015 1:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 1/7/2015 1:06:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/7/2015 1:05:00 PM (view original):
I'm not sure "any HOF-caliber starter could be a good reliever."

There's a mind-set, a routine and an ability to recover.    A good pitcher is a good pitcher but I don't think the roles are interchangeable because MLB2k says they are.

I don't think they are interchangeable. I think there's a reason good relievers aren't transitioned into good starters. But you see so-so starters turn into good relievers pretty often.

I think the perception is there because so-so starters don't become so-so relievers.   They become AAA pitchers.    IOW, you see the successful transitions because they're in your face.   The failures are pitching in Peeduck, IA. 

A lot of so-so AAA pitchers become very good MLB relievers.  They're moved to the pen because they won't cut it as starters at the ML level.  Betances, Warren, for example. Bobby Parnell, Jenrry Mejia, Carlos Torres, Jeurys Familia on the other side of town. Christ, the Mets put Dice-K in the pen and he had a 3.44 ERA as a reliever.

You may have heard of Mariano Rivera?

Not ALL failed starters move to the pen, because it's more valuable to have a good starter than a good reliever, and a team doesn't necessarily want to give up on a starter. And often the guys in their 30s have pride issues and don't want to be a reliever. But you'll be hard-pressed to find many starters try to convert to relievers and get worse.

Wouldn't it be reasonably accurate to say "ALL pitchers start out as starters"?     When's the last time you saw a scouting report say "Fantastic HS reliever.  Saw him throw 11 pitches in the district championship and all looked unhittable"?

So, if you agree, isn't every failed pitcher in the minors a failed starter who couldn't/wouldn't convert to a reliever?   And wouldn't you say about 99% of them were open to the idea of relieving and either A) failed or B) weren't given the chance? 

I guess it depends on where "start" is. There are plenty of college relievers that get drafted and stay relievers.

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/7/2015 2:17:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 1/7/2015 2:04:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/7/2015 1:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 1/7/2015 1:06:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/7/2015 1:05:00 PM (view original):
I'm not sure "any HOF-caliber starter could be a good reliever."

There's a mind-set, a routine and an ability to recover.    A good pitcher is a good pitcher but I don't think the roles are interchangeable because MLB2k says they are.

I don't think they are interchangeable. I think there's a reason good relievers aren't transitioned into good starters. But you see so-so starters turn into good relievers pretty often.

I think the perception is there because so-so starters don't become so-so relievers.   They become AAA pitchers.    IOW, you see the successful transitions because they're in your face.   The failures are pitching in Peeduck, IA. 

A lot of so-so AAA pitchers become very good MLB relievers.  They're moved to the pen because they won't cut it as starters at the ML level.  Betances, Warren, for example. Bobby Parnell, Jenrry Mejia, Carlos Torres, Jeurys Familia on the other side of town. Christ, the Mets put Dice-K in the pen and he had a 3.44 ERA as a reliever.

You may have heard of Mariano Rivera?

Not ALL failed starters move to the pen, because it's more valuable to have a good starter than a good reliever, and a team doesn't necessarily want to give up on a starter. And often the guys in their 30s have pride issues and don't want to be a reliever. But you'll be hard-pressed to find many starters try to convert to relievers and get worse.

Wouldn't it be reasonably accurate to say "ALL pitchers start out as starters"?     When's the last time you saw a scouting report say "Fantastic HS reliever.  Saw him throw 11 pitches in the district championship and all looked unhittable"?

So, if you agree, isn't every failed pitcher in the minors a failed starter who couldn't/wouldn't convert to a reliever?   And wouldn't you say about 99% of them were open to the idea of relieving and either A) failed or B) weren't given the chance? 

Not ALL starters can become good relievers.  But they generally put up better numbers than they did as a starter.

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/7/2015 2:21:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 1/7/2015 2:08:00 PM (view original):
I know you guys are big advocates of "watch the game, **** what stats say, use some common sense." If you hand a starting pitcher a baseball, and tell him "I need 9 innings from you today" or hand him a baseball and say "I need 3 outs." In which scenario do you think he'll pitch better in?

Don't know.    SP know they're throwing on Day 5.   They get in the cold tub the day after.   Fart around on the 2nd day.   Have a bullpen on the 3rd day.   Go shopping on the 4th day.   Then pitch.     Tell that guy sitting in the bullpen that he needs to be ready in 9 minutes and he might go "What?   I didn't even go shopping yesterday!!"

It's a different role with different preparation and a different mind-set. 

Three outs are easier than 27 but you prepare differently to get them.    It's like a hitter saying "Yeah, I can't DH.   I don't feel like I'm part of the game."

Three outs are easier than 27. Yes. Amp up that fastball. Let it fly.

Posted by stlnathan on 1/7/2015 2:23:00 PM (view original):
Lee Smith started his ML career as a starter. He had good stuff but still struggled a bit as a starter. He may have ended up being a good starter if the Cubs had been a little more patient with him. But i don't think he's complaining about how it turned out. Dennis Eckersley might have continued making a decent living as a starter but I doubt that he would have had as long and as fruitful a career if LaRussa hadn't talked him into making the move.

I was reasonably sure that Smith had 0 ML starts, and was surprised to have found he had a total of 6 during his ML career, in his 2nd and 3rd ML seasons. But he did not "begin his career as a starter." 

Eckersley proves my point perfectly, so thank you.

Posted by burnsy483 on 1/7/2015 2:27:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/7/2015 2:17:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 1/7/2015 2:04:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/7/2015 1:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 1/7/2015 1:06:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/7/2015 1:05:00 PM (view original):
I'm not sure "any HOF-caliber starter could be a good reliever."

There's a mind-set, a routine and an ability to recover.    A good pitcher is a good pitcher but I don't think the roles are interchangeable because MLB2k says they are.

I don't think they are interchangeable. I think there's a reason good relievers aren't transitioned into good starters. But you see so-so starters turn into good relievers pretty often.

I think the perception is there because so-so starters don't become so-so relievers.   They become AAA pitchers.    IOW, you see the successful transitions because they're in your face.   The failures are pitching in Peeduck, IA. 

A lot of so-so AAA pitchers become very good MLB relievers.  They're moved to the pen because they won't cut it as starters at the ML level.  Betances, Warren, for example. Bobby Parnell, Jenrry Mejia, Carlos Torres, Jeurys Familia on the other side of town. Christ, the Mets put Dice-K in the pen and he had a 3.44 ERA as a reliever.

You may have heard of Mariano Rivera?

Not ALL failed starters move to the pen, because it's more valuable to have a good starter than a good reliever, and a team doesn't necessarily want to give up on a starter. And often the guys in their 30s have pride issues and don't want to be a reliever. But you'll be hard-pressed to find many starters try to convert to relievers and get worse.

Wouldn't it be reasonably accurate to say "ALL pitchers start out as starters"?     When's the last time you saw a scouting report say "Fantastic HS reliever.  Saw him throw 11 pitches in the district championship and all looked unhittable"?

So, if you agree, isn't every failed pitcher in the minors a failed starter who couldn't/wouldn't convert to a reliever?   And wouldn't you say about 99% of them were open to the idea of relieving and either A) failed or B) weren't given the chance? 

Not ALL starters can become good relievers.  But they generally put up better numbers than they did as a starter.

You mean except for the ones you've never heard of because they failed in AA, right?

Would you say that more SP failed at converting, at some level, than succeeded at converting in the BL?   Pitchers who were fantastic SP in college/HS but couldn't become RP in AAA?

Posted by burnsy483 on 1/7/2015 2:29:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/7/2015 2:21:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 1/7/2015 2:08:00 PM (view original):
I know you guys are big advocates of "watch the game, **** what stats say, use some common sense." If you hand a starting pitcher a baseball, and tell him "I need 9 innings from you today" or hand him a baseball and say "I need 3 outs." In which scenario do you think he'll pitch better in?

Don't know.    SP know they're throwing on Day 5.   They get in the cold tub the day after.   Fart around on the 2nd day.   Have a bullpen on the 3rd day.   Go shopping on the 4th day.   Then pitch.     Tell that guy sitting in the bullpen that he needs to be ready in 9 minutes and he might go "What?   I didn't even go shopping yesterday!!"

It's a different role with different preparation and a different mind-set. 

Three outs are easier than 27 but you prepare differently to get them.    It's like a hitter saying "Yeah, I can't DH.   I don't feel like I'm part of the game."

Three outs are easier than 27. Yes. Amp up that fastball. Let it fly.

Sure hope that amped up fastball can find the strikezone.

I figured out why Smith became a reliever.

www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi

This is from 2006:

• Over the period of the past half-century, the performances of major league pitchers who’ve done a significant amount of both starting and relieving clearly demonstrates that relief pitching is a substantially less challenging assignment than starting pitching.

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/7/2015 2:32:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 1/7/2015 2:27:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/7/2015 2:17:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 1/7/2015 2:04:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/7/2015 1:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 1/7/2015 1:06:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/7/2015 1:05:00 PM (view original):
I'm not sure "any HOF-caliber starter could be a good reliever."

There's a mind-set, a routine and an ability to recover.    A good pitcher is a good pitcher but I don't think the roles are interchangeable because MLB2k says they are.

I don't think they are interchangeable. I think there's a reason good relievers aren't transitioned into good starters. But you see so-so starters turn into good relievers pretty often.

I think the perception is there because so-so starters don't become so-so relievers.   They become AAA pitchers.    IOW, you see the successful transitions because they're in your face.   The failures are pitching in Peeduck, IA. 

A lot of so-so AAA pitchers become very good MLB relievers.  They're moved to the pen because they won't cut it as starters at the ML level.  Betances, Warren, for example. Bobby Parnell, Jenrry Mejia, Carlos Torres, Jeurys Familia on the other side of town. Christ, the Mets put Dice-K in the pen and he had a 3.44 ERA as a reliever.

You may have heard of Mariano Rivera?

Not ALL failed starters move to the pen, because it's more valuable to have a good starter than a good reliever, and a team doesn't necessarily want to give up on a starter. And often the guys in their 30s have pride issues and don't want to be a reliever. But you'll be hard-pressed to find many starters try to convert to relievers and get worse.

Wouldn't it be reasonably accurate to say "ALL pitchers start out as starters"?     When's the last time you saw a scouting report say "Fantastic HS reliever.  Saw him throw 11 pitches in the district championship and all looked unhittable"?

So, if you agree, isn't every failed pitcher in the minors a failed starter who couldn't/wouldn't convert to a reliever?   And wouldn't you say about 99% of them were open to the idea of relieving and either A) failed or B) weren't given the chance? 

Not ALL starters can become good relievers.  But they generally put up better numbers than they did as a starter.

You mean except for the ones you've never heard of because they failed in AA, right?

Would you say that more SP failed at converting, at some level, than succeeded at converting in the BL?   Pitchers who were fantastic SP in college/HS but couldn't become RP in AAA?

I'd say that your average SP, who pitched great in college, who hit a wall in AA with consecutive years of 5 ERAs, if moved to the pen, likely didn't become a worse pitcher. Maybe better, but not significant enough to warrant holding on to him.

Wtf is mike really arguing? That some minor league pitchers aren't good enough to be major league relievers? No ****.

Or maybe not better.   Of course, we'd never know because we never heard of him.    I'd venture a guess that virtually every failed minor league SP would welcome the opportunity to relieve if he thought that might get him to the next level.   Some fail, some never get the chance because the organization don't think he has the talent. 

Seriously, I would think a guy accustomed to throwing 6-7 innings would be better if asked to throw 1.   But, as I said, a lot of guys we've never heard of have tried and failed.