Posted by kcsundevil on 8/12/2016 1:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by chapelhillne on 8/12/2016 1:12:00 PM (view original):
Hey gomiami - I personally don't see anything wrong with what you've posted in the threads at all. Most of what you have said is constructive, not just out and out bashing the product over and over. I am mostly referring to those who are just stirring up anger over it and trying to make others leave, or who are just on there to personally insult others. So, to clarify, if I was HD administration I would only delete privileges for that type of posting. And I'd really just address the extreme cases.

So submit a ticket. Your original post in this thread was wildly passive aggressive. Man up.

You're projecting. Chapel made very clear he wasn't talking about skeptics who engage in useful, constructive criticism. The only reason you should take it personally is if the valid criticism applies to you. There's nothing passive or aggressive about the OP.

Posted by pkoopman on 8/12/2016 1:29:00 PM (view original):

Posted by kcsundevil on 8/12/2016 1:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by chapelhillne on 8/12/2016 1:12:00 PM (view original):
Hey gomiami - I personally don't see anything wrong with what you've posted in the threads at all. Most of what you have said is constructive, not just out and out bashing the product over and over. I am mostly referring to those who are just stirring up anger over it and trying to make others leave, or who are just on there to personally insult others. So, to clarify, if I was HD administration I would only delete privileges for that type of posting. And I'd really just address the extreme cases.

So submit a ticket. Your original post in this thread was wildly passive aggressive. Man up.

You're projecting. Chapel made very clear he wasn't talking about skeptics who engage in useful, constructive criticism. The only reason you should take it personally is if the valid criticism applies to you. There's nothing passive or aggressive about the OP.

Respectfully disagree.

Posted by gomiami1972 on 8/12/2016 1:06:00 PM (view original):
All of you can submit a ticket to have me banned if you wish. My concerns are reasoned, based on 12 years of playing the game. I'm not throwing sand just to create trouble.

But if there has developed a culture on this website of wanting to crush all legitimate dissent, please let me know now.

For the record, I have no issues with you either gomiami. Constructive criticism is fair game. Keep the focus and criticism on the game issues and not on the people. I think the problems start when we devolve into insulting each other.

Posted by kcsundevil on 8/12/2016 1:30:00 PM (view original):

Posted by pkoopman on 8/12/2016 1:29:00 PM (view original):

Posted by kcsundevil on 8/12/2016 1:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by chapelhillne on 8/12/2016 1:12:00 PM (view original):
Hey gomiami - I personally don't see anything wrong with what you've posted in the threads at all. Most of what you have said is constructive, not just out and out bashing the product over and over. I am mostly referring to those who are just stirring up anger over it and trying to make others leave, or who are just on there to personally insult others. So, to clarify, if I was HD administration I would only delete privileges for that type of posting. And I'd really just address the extreme cases.

So submit a ticket. Your original post in this thread was wildly passive aggressive. Man up.

You're projecting. Chapel made very clear he wasn't talking about skeptics who engage in useful, constructive criticism. The only reason you should take it personally is if the valid criticism applies to you. There's nothing passive or aggressive about the OP.

Respectfully disagree.

Now a classic case of passive aggressive behavior is using insults, thinly veiled by humor or snark, to undermine or discredit somebody. This has been used by a number of posters over the past few months, both for and against beta. You could call some of coachspud's behavior passive aggressive, and I'd have no protest (as one example - many of the people actively engaging him/her are guilty as well, for the same reasons, of course). But chapel presents the case clearly and concisely and openly. It's reasonable and logical. There is absolutely nothing passive aggressive about pointing out the fact that few other online businesses would tolerate the ongoing attempts at sabotage of a new release, upgrade, overhaul, etc. in forums they operate and control. It's terrible for business. Again, this is not referring to criticisms made in good faith by skeptics who want to help improve the game, and the ongoing discussion to that end. But if you just hate the idea of change, and can't tolerate the thought of people moving on in the game without you, AND you consistently engage in nothing constructive, it is well within WIS right to remove you, and it's time they seriously consider doing so.

Posted by rogelio on 8/12/2016 1:15:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gomiami1972 on 8/12/2016 1:06:00 PM (view original):
All of you can submit a ticket to have me banned if you wish. My concerns are reasoned, based on 12 years of playing the game. I'm not throwing sand just to create trouble.

But if there has developed a culture on this website of wanting to crush all legitimate dissent, please let me know now.

I think I was in a conference with you when I started playing HD...maybe 6 years ago, gomiami. You shouldn't take this personally, as it isn't intended at you, but the forums have been used to abuse those that show any support for the notion of the revamp of recruiting for two months now!

There are trolls posting abuse under IDs that haven't had teams in ages. theonly/viva was trying to get banned by attacking anyone that disagreed with him in every thread. Is that legitimate?

Hey rog,

Yeah, I do remember being a conference mate.

I really don't know how to respond. I have no ill feelings at all towards chapel, and I didn't think the post was directed towards me. After 12 years, I have less than 400 posts, so it is not like I'm vocal or active on the forums anyway. But I still find the attitude and language in the original post of this thread to be autocratic. How do you define a negative comment? For the good of the game, how do you define what is acceptable behavior and what is not? How do you define a constructive suggestion?

If WIS wants to limit the forums to paying customers only (those who have an active team) then fine...but what I interpret as legitimate dissent, someone else might deem negative, unacceptable or not constructive. Personally, I find this type of talk frightening.

Posted by chapelhillne on 8/12/2016 1:37:00 PM (view original):
And for the record, when I said someone posting with no active teams, Etta is the one I was referring to. Theonlyis just sent me a sitemail saying as much, in-between cussing at me. LOL

etta is doing his own thing for sure.

I don't have any active teams either, and I've stated I'd like to come back to HD, but not for a while. What's my status on these boards? Am I allowed to continue participating?

The existing user base had zero
voice in the completely arbitrary new HD. Voice into the completely new direction of HD with beta isn't even comparable to having voice into what direction the new beta should have gone.

Silencing dissenting voices would likely be welcomed by HD, which is really at the root of the problem.

Posted by vandydave on 8/12/2016 2:46:00 PM (view original):
The existing user base had zero
voice in the completely arbitrary new HD. Voice into the completely new direction of HD with beta isn't even comparable to having voice into what direction the new beta should have gone.

Silencing dissenting voices would likely be welcomed by HD, which is really at the root of the problem.

Welcome to #ChapelChat, where we only say nice things.

I like basketball.

It's obviously not up to me. Honestly though, if I was HD, I would only ban a very few people. Those who just insult everyone over and over, and those who just seem to have an agenda to sabotage the entire release by encouraging people to leave. I am just looking at it as a businessman, and what would I do if I was them.

You want to give people a way to voice their opinions, and make suggestions. That's healthy and gets people engaged in the process. But you don't want to have a place where something that you are releasing gets bashed over and over, especially, in some cases by those who have not tried it.

For example, if someone is out there responding to virtually every single positive post with a negative statement, that's not good for business. I would have no problem with that person occasionally bringing up an argument about why they don't like that idea, but if there is someone out there that is just looking for positive statements about the release that they can quote and trash, I'd rather give them a refund and send them packing. From a business point of view, that would make sense to me.

There are very few that fit that description. I'd also remove any posts that have a subject line about how soon the author is planning on leaving.

Going back to the comment about the original post being passive aggressive, I didn't mean for it to come across that way. This is just how I try to handle things. I hate that the forums have gotten this way because I enjoy the game a lot.

I hope you return to HD and try the Beta and end up really enjoying it. It's not perfect. It does have a few more things that hopefully will get addressed. But, I guess the thing is that no matter what they come up with, not everyone is going to agree that it is a good thing. I have changed my mind on some things about the beta once I tried them out. For example, at first, I hated the idea of a 20 HV limit, but I really like it now. I liked the actions processing instantly at first, but after seeing it in action and listening to the opinions of others, I changed my mind.

I think that the big thing is that everyone should go into it with an open mind. Even those who have not enjoyed beta, especially if they only did the first season or part of the first season. It will be different in many ways with more coaches, and coaches that are focused on winning.

Posted by kcsundevil on 8/12/2016 2:51:00 PM (view original):

Posted by vandydave on 8/12/2016 2:46:00 PM (view original):
The existing user base had zero
voice in the completely arbitrary new HD. Voice into the completely new direction of HD with beta isn't even comparable to having voice into what direction the new beta should have gone.

Silencing dissenting voices would likely be welcomed by HD, which is really at the root of the problem.

Welcome to #ChapelChat, where we only say nice things.

I like basketball.

OK - you're banned now - LOL - Just kidding :)