Cooperstown over haul Topic

Did I really just read that a player with 630 career home runs, a .907 career OPS, and 10 GG's in CF should not be at the highest level?
12/19/2018 8:48 PM (edited)
Posted by strikeout26 on 12/19/2018 7:48:00 PM (view original):
I did really just read that a player with 630 career home runs, a .907 career OPS, and 10 GG's in CF should not be at the highest level?
meh. Griffey isnt a hill I’m interested in dying on but I do think he’s generally over-rated and, if Maddux isn’t in the top tier, Griffey shouldn’t be either.
12/19/2018 8:22 PM
Posted by strikeout26 on 12/19/2018 7:48:00 PM (view original):
I did really just read that a player with 630 career home runs, a .907 career OPS, and 10 GG's in CF should not be at the highest level?
In case there was ever any doubt about BLs baseball knowledge, we have this.
12/19/2018 8:43 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 12/19/2018 8:22:00 PM (view original):
Posted by strikeout26 on 12/19/2018 7:48:00 PM (view original):
I did really just read that a player with 630 career home runs, a .907 career OPS, and 10 GG's in CF should not be at the highest level?
meh. Griffey isnt a hill I’m interested in dying on but I do think he’s generally over-rated and, if Maddux isn’t in the top tier, Griffey shouldn’t be either.
Still would love to hear some kind of logic behind this, but I agree that Maddux belongs with the elite of elite as well.
12/19/2018 8:49 PM
Posted by strikeout26 on 12/19/2018 8:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/19/2018 8:22:00 PM (view original):
Posted by strikeout26 on 12/19/2018 7:48:00 PM (view original):
I did really just read that a player with 630 career home runs, a .907 career OPS, and 10 GG's in CF should not be at the highest level?
meh. Griffey isnt a hill I’m interested in dying on but I do think he’s generally over-rated and, if Maddux isn’t in the top tier, Griffey shouldn’t be either.
Still would love to hear some kind of logic behind this, but I agree that Maddux belongs with the elite of elite as well.
He’s probably the 5th best CF of all time, 6th when Trout retires. I imagine the super elite tier is just the top 2 or 3 players at each position. Maybe top 10-15 for starting pitchers.
12/19/2018 9:26 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 12/19/2018 9:26:00 PM (view original):
Posted by strikeout26 on 12/19/2018 8:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/19/2018 8:22:00 PM (view original):
Posted by strikeout26 on 12/19/2018 7:48:00 PM (view original):
I did really just read that a player with 630 career home runs, a .907 career OPS, and 10 GG's in CF should not be at the highest level?
meh. Griffey isnt a hill I’m interested in dying on but I do think he’s generally over-rated and, if Maddux isn’t in the top tier, Griffey shouldn’t be either.
Still would love to hear some kind of logic behind this, but I agree that Maddux belongs with the elite of elite as well.
He’s probably the 5th best CF of all time, 6th when Trout retires. I imagine the super elite tier is just the top 2 or 3 players at each position. Maybe top 10-15 for starting pitchers.
Meaning you rank both Griffey and Trout ahead of Tris Speaker?
12/19/2018 9:39 PM
Posted by thunder1008 on 12/19/2018 9:39:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/19/2018 9:26:00 PM (view original):
Posted by strikeout26 on 12/19/2018 8:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/19/2018 8:22:00 PM (view original):
Posted by strikeout26 on 12/19/2018 7:48:00 PM (view original):
I did really just read that a player with 630 career home runs, a .907 career OPS, and 10 GG's in CF should not be at the highest level?
meh. Griffey isnt a hill I’m interested in dying on but I do think he’s generally over-rated and, if Maddux isn’t in the top tier, Griffey shouldn’t be either.
Still would love to hear some kind of logic behind this, but I agree that Maddux belongs with the elite of elite as well.
He’s probably the 5th best CF of all time, 6th when Trout retires. I imagine the super elite tier is just the top 2 or 3 players at each position. Maybe top 10-15 for starting pitchers.
Meaning you rank both Griffey and Trout ahead of Tris Speaker?
No

Mays, Cobb, Speaker, Mantle

Griffey
Dimaggio

Trout tbd

12/19/2018 9:52 PM
I don’t agree with the super elite tier only being 2-3 players per position. CF is probably the strongest position throughout history, and the top 8 guys are probably more valuable than the top 2, say, 3rd basemen
12/19/2018 9:54 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 12/19/2018 9:52:00 PM (view original):
Posted by thunder1008 on 12/19/2018 9:39:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/19/2018 9:26:00 PM (view original):
Posted by strikeout26 on 12/19/2018 8:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/19/2018 8:22:00 PM (view original):
Posted by strikeout26 on 12/19/2018 7:48:00 PM (view original):
I did really just read that a player with 630 career home runs, a .907 career OPS, and 10 GG's in CF should not be at the highest level?
meh. Griffey isnt a hill I’m interested in dying on but I do think he’s generally over-rated and, if Maddux isn’t in the top tier, Griffey shouldn’t be either.
Still would love to hear some kind of logic behind this, but I agree that Maddux belongs with the elite of elite as well.
He’s probably the 5th best CF of all time, 6th when Trout retires. I imagine the super elite tier is just the top 2 or 3 players at each position. Maybe top 10-15 for starting pitchers.
Meaning you rank both Griffey and Trout ahead of Tris Speaker?
No

Mays, Cobb, Speaker, Mantle

Griffey
Dimaggio

Trout tbd

Got it. Seems low for both Mantle and DiMaggio, but glad you have Speaker in the top 5.
12/19/2018 10:08 PM
What's Speaker's ERA+?

I'm told that's the only relevant way to judge players.
12/19/2018 10:58 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 12/19/2018 10:58:00 PM (view original):
What's Speaker's ERA+?

I'm told that's the only relevant way to judge players.
Must be an inside joke. Guess you had to be there.
12/19/2018 11:40 PM
Posted by thunder1008 on 12/19/2018 10:08:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/19/2018 9:52:00 PM (view original):
Posted by thunder1008 on 12/19/2018 9:39:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/19/2018 9:26:00 PM (view original):
Posted by strikeout26 on 12/19/2018 8:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/19/2018 8:22:00 PM (view original):
Posted by strikeout26 on 12/19/2018 7:48:00 PM (view original):
I did really just read that a player with 630 career home runs, a .907 career OPS, and 10 GG's in CF should not be at the highest level?
meh. Griffey isnt a hill I’m interested in dying on but I do think he’s generally over-rated and, if Maddux isn’t in the top tier, Griffey shouldn’t be either.
Still would love to hear some kind of logic behind this, but I agree that Maddux belongs with the elite of elite as well.
He’s probably the 5th best CF of all time, 6th when Trout retires. I imagine the super elite tier is just the top 2 or 3 players at each position. Maybe top 10-15 for starting pitchers.
Meaning you rank both Griffey and Trout ahead of Tris Speaker?
No

Mays, Cobb, Speaker, Mantle

Griffey
Dimaggio

Trout tbd

Got it. Seems low for both Mantle and DiMaggio, but glad you have Speaker in the top 5.
I would probably move Mantle one spot up, ahead of Speaker. Would also be tempted to move Cobb ahead of Mays. But those are all incredibly subjective. Any time you try to compare a deadball guy to a post-deadball guy it's basically all conjecture. It's hard to compare guys with different kinds of skill sets, but even harder when there's such a marked difference in what a given skill set winds up looking like statistically. So whatever on the top 4. They probably are the right top 4, and most people would put Mays ahead of Mantle and Cobb ahead of Speaker. How you interact the deadball and post-deadball groups doesn't really matter that much.

I think DiMaggio should go ahead of Griffey, but his career was pretty short. Even if you give him credit for playing a full season every year he missed for military service he comes up 2000+ plate appearances behind Griffey. So there's that. I think, quite opposite of what somebody said yesterday, that if anything CF were so lionized for much of baseball history that now they may tend to be a little bit overrated. That comment referenced 3B, so I'll just say that there are several 3B I'd take ahead of either Griffey or DiMaggio. Mike Schmidt and Eddie Matthews at least. One could argue for Boggs or Chipper Jones. Although I will say if you want to give credit to DiMaggio for his war years - I always think it's dangerous to go down that road, because of things like injury what-ifs - you'd probably put him ahead of everybody on that list except Schmidt.
12/20/2018 2:51 PM
Posted by dahsdebater on 12/20/2018 2:51:00 PM (view original):
Posted by thunder1008 on 12/19/2018 10:08:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/19/2018 9:52:00 PM (view original):
Posted by thunder1008 on 12/19/2018 9:39:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/19/2018 9:26:00 PM (view original):
Posted by strikeout26 on 12/19/2018 8:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/19/2018 8:22:00 PM (view original):
Posted by strikeout26 on 12/19/2018 7:48:00 PM (view original):
I did really just read that a player with 630 career home runs, a .907 career OPS, and 10 GG's in CF should not be at the highest level?
meh. Griffey isnt a hill I’m interested in dying on but I do think he’s generally over-rated and, if Maddux isn’t in the top tier, Griffey shouldn’t be either.
Still would love to hear some kind of logic behind this, but I agree that Maddux belongs with the elite of elite as well.
He’s probably the 5th best CF of all time, 6th when Trout retires. I imagine the super elite tier is just the top 2 or 3 players at each position. Maybe top 10-15 for starting pitchers.
Meaning you rank both Griffey and Trout ahead of Tris Speaker?
No

Mays, Cobb, Speaker, Mantle

Griffey
Dimaggio

Trout tbd

Got it. Seems low for both Mantle and DiMaggio, but glad you have Speaker in the top 5.
I would probably move Mantle one spot up, ahead of Speaker. Would also be tempted to move Cobb ahead of Mays. But those are all incredibly subjective. Any time you try to compare a deadball guy to a post-deadball guy it's basically all conjecture. It's hard to compare guys with different kinds of skill sets, but even harder when there's such a marked difference in what a given skill set winds up looking like statistically. So whatever on the top 4. They probably are the right top 4, and most people would put Mays ahead of Mantle and Cobb ahead of Speaker. How you interact the deadball and post-deadball groups doesn't really matter that much.

I think DiMaggio should go ahead of Griffey, but his career was pretty short. Even if you give him credit for playing a full season every year he missed for military service he comes up 2000+ plate appearances behind Griffey. So there's that. I think, quite opposite of what somebody said yesterday, that if anything CF were so lionized for much of baseball history that now they may tend to be a little bit overrated. That comment referenced 3B, so I'll just say that there are several 3B I'd take ahead of either Griffey or DiMaggio. Mike Schmidt and Eddie Matthews at least. One could argue for Boggs or Chipper Jones. Although I will say if you want to give credit to DiMaggio for his war years - I always think it's dangerous to go down that road, because of things like injury what-ifs - you'd probably put him ahead of everybody on that list except Schmidt.
Really smart analysis. My own subjective ranking would be Mays, Mantle, Cobb, Speaker and DiMaggio. It pains me to rank Mays ahead of my childhood idol Mickey Mantle but it's the right thing to do. You could make a case for Cobb anywhere in the top 3 based on his hitting. Next tier is probably something like Griffey, Snider, eventually Trout and maybe Puckett. Would love to include Cool Papa Bell and Oscar Charleston for "completeness" but not enough verifiable stats and meaningful comps, so it comes down to purely anecdotal accounts of their raw talent. Better to keep the list MLB.
12/20/2018 3:31 PM
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I like that list. I'd put Schmidt on 3rd, Wagner at SS, and Cobb in CF.

The rotation is really tough. I think I'd take Walter Johnson, Clemens, Seaver, and Lefty Grove. Maybe Pete Alexander for the 5th spot, though any of the modern guys on your list work too. Also Whitey Ford, who gets shockingly little love as an all-time great pitcher with a bunch of awards and recognition, 6 titles, and of course a career Yankee.
12/20/2018 4:28 PM
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