Posted by MikeT23 on 1/29/2018 10:03:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 1/29/2018 9:54:00 AM (view original):
Regardless, I think if he could have startered, he would have. Starters are significantly more valuable than relievers.

Are you sure?

Smoltz pitched 3-4 years of relief before going back to starting. Did it take 4 years to recover well enough from injury to return to starting?
Eckersley went from starter to reliever after 1 bad season as a SP. Was that really enough to remove him from the rotation?
And, if you read the last few posts, Papalbon was going to return to starting but asked to remain as closer. Sounds like a manager decision, no?

YES

If a team has a deep starting staff and the mid 90s Yankees had that there was no reason to move Mo into there when he could just close with his nasty cutter and plus fastball. Same with the Sox and Pap in 2007. I think once closers find success at a young age they remain in that role because they are mentally fit for it and can still get paid very well.

Derek Lowe is an another example. He was a very good closer. But he had starter stuff and the Sox needed IP and starters in 2002. Because all they had were Pedro and the nobodies. They grabbed Urbina to close and Lowe was actually very good, going 21 - 8.

My point is that not all closers are failed starters. Some just fit that role much better for a time. But others can do both. It is a fluid situation. I would wager that Mo would have had an above average career as a starter.

Posted by bad_luck on 1/29/2018 10:02:00 AM (view original):

Posted by d_rock97 on 1/29/2018 9:56:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 1/29/2018 9:46:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/29/2018 6:21:00 AM (view original):
He is.

Not dodging. Just wanted to finish with Rivera before we changed the subject.

The answer to whether or not Martinez could have played 1st is probably the same as it is any time you ask if a player can move to a more difficult position: no. Whether it’s DH to 1st, RP to SP, 2b to SS, usually, if they could have they would have.

There are exceptions. Manny Machado could probably move to SS and be very good. You think Rivera is an exception. Maybe Martinez could have. He was a decent 3rd baseman for a quarter of his career, maybe he would have been fine at 1st for at least a few seasons.

It’s not moving from DH to 1B. It’s moving from 3B to 1B. It’s been done before.

Bagwell had a career .917 fielding % at 3rd and moved to first, where he was decent and won a gold glove.

Mark McGwire had a .899 fielding % at 3rd and was decent at first.

Jason Giambi had a .925 fielding % at 3rd and was all right at first.


3rd basemen historically have had success defensively at 1st base. It’s a much easier position.

Edgar would’ve been league average at worst defensively at 1st base.

fielding percentage is a **** stat.

Well sorry I couldn’t find the UZR of every 80s minor leaguer at 3rd. Point was that they were terrible 3rd basemen. And league average at 1B, which is what Mike asked a couple pages back.

No, McGwire and Giambi were not league average 1B. They were terrible. You went full retard with that post. McGwire, BTW, played 175 innings at 3B.

Based on UZR, from 1987 (first full year) to 1996, McGwire was worth 8 fielding runs above average.
From 1997-2001 however, he was worth -35 fielding runs above average.

So he was a lumbering fool for a few years late in his career.


But I’ll admit I was wrong on Giambi.

So, over a 10 year period, McGwire was worth .8 runs above average. Then, over a 5 year period he was worth -7 per season and you still think he was league average? What kind of calculator do you use?

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/29/2018 11:05:00 AM (view original):
So, over a 10 year period, McGwire was worth .8 runs above average. Then, over a 5 year period he was worth -7 per season and you still think he was league average? What kind of calculator do you use?

Yes. .8 runs above average. So he was average. That was the point. He was average.

Do you judge players defensive abilities based on what they did age 33 and up?

Even your precious Don Mattingly was worth a total of -3 fielding runs age 33 and 34.

Or do you remember him by his 35 fielding runs above average from 82-93?

Posted by bad_luck on 1/28/2018 4:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/28/2018 4:15:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 1/28/2018 3:59:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/28/2018 3:57:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 1/28/2018 3:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/28/2018 3:51:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 1/28/2018 3:48:00 PM (view original):
Yep. Wanna guess how many minor league meh-prospects throw mid-90’s fastballs?

With great cutters? My guess is not many because teams recognize those dudes can become 1st ballot HOFers.

Yeah. As relief pitchers, because that isn’t enough to survive as a starter.

He had a curve. Not a 95 MPH fastball or unhittable cutter but it was a BL pitch. That he didn't need as a RP.

Are you going to insist that SP need three(3) A+/A pitches to be effective?

So, are you arguing that Rivera would have been just as effective as a starter?

Sorry, I'm afraid you didn't answer my question. I'll recap.

You said SP need more than one pitch.
I said he had a 95 MPH fastball and an unhittable cutter.
You insinuated that wouldn't cut it as a SP.
I mentioned that he had a curve, not as good as a 95 MPH fastball or unhittable cutter but a BL pitch nonetheless. I then asked if you thought MLB starters needed 3 A+/A pitches.
You, as you are prone to do, answered with a question.

So answer this so we can continue: Are you going to insist that SP need three(3) A+/A pitches to be effective? Or don't. Everyone knows how you argue. Not answering questions that make you look even dumber is your thing.

I would say that a HOF-level starter needs three excellent pitches. But an average-to-very good starter doesn’t.

So there’s your answer. Now answer my questions above.

Phil Niekro is laughing at you.

Posted by d_rock97 on 1/29/2018 11:16:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/29/2018 11:05:00 AM (view original):
So, over a 10 year period, McGwire was worth .8 runs above average. Then, over a 5 year period he was worth -7 per season and you still think he was league average? What kind of calculator do you use?

Yes. .8 runs above average. So he was average. That was the point. He was average.

Do you judge players defensive abilities based on what they did age 33 and up?

Even your precious Don Mattingly was worth a total of -3 fielding runs age 33 and 34.

Or do you remember him by his 35 fielding runs above average from 82-93?

I'd look at their career as a whole if I was evaluating their ability to field. For 1/3 of McGwire's career, he was a statue holding a glove. That's a pretty significant portion of a career to be arguably the worst fielding 1B in the league.

Posted by toddcommish on 1/29/2018 11:27:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 1/28/2018 4:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/28/2018 4:15:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 1/28/2018 3:59:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/28/2018 3:57:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 1/28/2018 3:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/28/2018 3:51:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 1/28/2018 3:48:00 PM (view original):
Yep. Wanna guess how many minor league meh-prospects throw mid-90’s fastballs?

With great cutters? My guess is not many because teams recognize those dudes can become 1st ballot HOFers.

Yeah. As relief pitchers, because that isn’t enough to survive as a starter.

He had a curve. Not a 95 MPH fastball or unhittable cutter but it was a BL pitch. That he didn't need as a RP.

Are you going to insist that SP need three(3) A+/A pitches to be effective?

So, are you arguing that Rivera would have been just as effective as a starter?

Sorry, I'm afraid you didn't answer my question. I'll recap.

You said SP need more than one pitch.
I said he had a 95 MPH fastball and an unhittable cutter.
You insinuated that wouldn't cut it as a SP.
I mentioned that he had a curve, not as good as a 95 MPH fastball or unhittable cutter but a BL pitch nonetheless. I then asked if you thought MLB starters needed 3 A+/A pitches.
You, as you are prone to do, answered with a question.

So answer this so we can continue: Are you going to insist that SP need three(3) A+/A pitches to be effective? Or don't. Everyone knows how you argue. Not answering questions that make you look even dumber is your thing.

I would say that a HOF-level starter needs three excellent pitches. But an average-to-very good starter doesn’t.

So there’s your answer. Now answer my questions above.

Phil Niekro is laughing at you.

Obviously, there are always exceptions. Especially when talking about knuckleballers.

Posted by bad_luck on 1/29/2018 12:02:00 PM (view original):

Posted by toddcommish on 1/29/2018 11:27:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 1/28/2018 4:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/28/2018 4:15:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 1/28/2018 3:59:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/28/2018 3:57:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 1/28/2018 3:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/28/2018 3:51:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 1/28/2018 3:48:00 PM (view original):
Yep. Wanna guess how many minor league meh-prospects throw mid-90’s fastballs?

With great cutters? My guess is not many because teams recognize those dudes can become 1st ballot HOFers.

Yeah. As relief pitchers, because that isn’t enough to survive as a starter.

He had a curve. Not a 95 MPH fastball or unhittable cutter but it was a BL pitch. That he didn't need as a RP.

Are you going to insist that SP need three(3) A+/A pitches to be effective?

So, are you arguing that Rivera would have been just as effective as a starter?

Sorry, I'm afraid you didn't answer my question. I'll recap.

You said SP need more than one pitch.
I said he had a 95 MPH fastball and an unhittable cutter.
You insinuated that wouldn't cut it as a SP.
I mentioned that he had a curve, not as good as a 95 MPH fastball or unhittable cutter but a BL pitch nonetheless. I then asked if you thought MLB starters needed 3 A+/A pitches.
You, as you are prone to do, answered with a question.

So answer this so we can continue: Are you going to insist that SP need three(3) A+/A pitches to be effective? Or don't. Everyone knows how you argue. Not answering questions that make you look even dumber is your thing.

I would say that a HOF-level starter needs three excellent pitches. But an average-to-very good starter doesn’t.

So there’s your answer. Now answer my questions above.

Phil Niekro is laughing at you.

Obviously, there are always exceptions. Especially when talking about knuckleballers.

Maybe Planet Fucktard is invading us and you are their leader?

All your base are ours?

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/29/2018 11:37:00 AM (view original):

Posted by d_rock97 on 1/29/2018 11:16:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/29/2018 11:05:00 AM (view original):
So, over a 10 year period, McGwire was worth .8 runs above average. Then, over a 5 year period he was worth -7 per season and you still think he was league average? What kind of calculator do you use?

Yes. .8 runs above average. So he was average. That was the point. He was average.

Do you judge players defensive abilities based on what they did age 33 and up?

Even your precious Don Mattingly was worth a total of -3 fielding runs age 33 and 34.

Or do you remember him by his 35 fielding runs above average from 82-93?

I'd look at their career as a whole if I was evaluating their ability to field. For 1/3 of McGwire's career, he was a statue holding a glove. That's a pretty significant portion of a career to be arguably the worst fielding 1B in the league.

Well that’s just opinion based I guess. Can’t change that. Just like how we’ll be seeing Albert Pujols as a defensive liability until 2021. He was a gold glover and elite defender for the first half of his career. But for a significant portion of his career, he’ll be a statue wearing a glove

MM's WIFS D ratings show otherwise. Range of A- in 1998.

Posted by d_rock97 on 1/29/2018 12:49:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/29/2018 11:37:00 AM (view original):

Posted by d_rock97 on 1/29/2018 11:16:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/29/2018 11:05:00 AM (view original):
So, over a 10 year period, McGwire was worth .8 runs above average. Then, over a 5 year period he was worth -7 per season and you still think he was league average? What kind of calculator do you use?

Yes. .8 runs above average. So he was average. That was the point. He was average.

Do you judge players defensive abilities based on what they did age 33 and up?

Even your precious Don Mattingly was worth a total of -3 fielding runs age 33 and 34.

Or do you remember him by his 35 fielding runs above average from 82-93?

I'd look at their career as a whole if I was evaluating their ability to field. For 1/3 of McGwire's career, he was a statue holding a glove. That's a pretty significant portion of a career to be arguably the worst fielding 1B in the league.

Well that’s just opinion based I guess. Can’t change that. Just like how we’ll be seeing Albert Pujols as a defensive liability until 2021. He was a gold glover and elite defender for the first half of his career. But for a significant portion of his career, he’ll be a statue wearing a glove

It's not really opinion based. You posted the numbers. For his career, he was -27. That is not average.

Posted by d_rock97 on 1/29/2018 12:49:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/29/2018 11:37:00 AM (view original):

Posted by d_rock97 on 1/29/2018 11:16:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/29/2018 11:05:00 AM (view original):
So, over a 10 year period, McGwire was worth .8 runs above average. Then, over a 5 year period he was worth -7 per season and you still think he was league average? What kind of calculator do you use?

Yes. .8 runs above average. So he was average. That was the point. He was average.

Do you judge players defensive abilities based on what they did age 33 and up?

Even your precious Don Mattingly was worth a total of -3 fielding runs age 33 and 34.

Or do you remember him by his 35 fielding runs above average from 82-93?

I'd look at their career as a whole if I was evaluating their ability to field. For 1/3 of McGwire's career, he was a statue holding a glove. That's a pretty significant portion of a career to be arguably the worst fielding 1B in the league.

Well that’s just opinion based I guess. Can’t change that. Just like how we’ll be seeing Albert Pujols as a defensive liability until 2021. He was a gold glover and elite defender for the first half of his career. But for a significant portion of his career, he’ll be a statue wearing a glove

I don’t think McGwire was ever really good at defense. Fangraphs has him as significantly below average for all but just a few seasons, where he was average-ish.

Thats different than someone being excellent for a long time and then falling off due to injury and age.