Posted by d_rock97 on 1/29/2018 11:01:00 AM (view original):

Based on UZR, from 1987 (first full year) to 1996, McGwire was worth 8 fielding runs above average.
From 1997-2001 however, he was worth -35 fielding runs above average.

So he was a lumbering fool for a few years late in his career.


But I’ll admit I was wrong on Giambi.

I’ll quote this again since y’all (sorry yous guys for you carpetbaggers) don’t seem to get it. This is where I stand. And yous guys are just gonna have me repeating myself for 30 pages. You ain’t gonna get me. So I’ll just go back to this post.

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/29/2018 12:57:00 PM (view original):

Posted by d_rock97 on 1/29/2018 12:49:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/29/2018 11:37:00 AM (view original):

Posted by d_rock97 on 1/29/2018 11:16:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/29/2018 11:05:00 AM (view original):
So, over a 10 year period, McGwire was worth .8 runs above average. Then, over a 5 year period he was worth -7 per season and you still think he was league average? What kind of calculator do you use?

Yes. .8 runs above average. So he was average. That was the point. He was average.

Do you judge players defensive abilities based on what they did age 33 and up?

Even your precious Don Mattingly was worth a total of -3 fielding runs age 33 and 34.

Or do you remember him by his 35 fielding runs above average from 82-93?

I'd look at their career as a whole if I was evaluating their ability to field. For 1/3 of McGwire's career, he was a statue holding a glove. That's a pretty significant portion of a career to be arguably the worst fielding 1B in the league.

Well that’s just opinion based I guess. Can’t change that. Just like how we’ll be seeing Albert Pujols as a defensive liability until 2021. He was a gold glover and elite defender for the first half of his career. But for a significant portion of his career, he’ll be a statue wearing a glove

It's not really opinion based. You posted the numbers. For his career, he was -27. That is not average.

Want me to keep quoting this?

Posted by d_rock97 on 1/29/2018 1:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by d_rock97 on 1/29/2018 11:01:00 AM (view original):

Based on UZR, from 1987 (first full year) to 1996, McGwire was worth 8 fielding runs above average.
From 1997-2001 however, he was worth -35 fielding runs above average.

So he was a lumbering fool for a few years late in his career.


But I’ll admit I was wrong on Giambi.

I’ll quote this again since y’all (sorry yous guys for you carpetbaggers) don’t seem to get it. This is where I stand. And yous guys are just gonna have me repeating myself for 30 pages. You ain’t gonna get me. So I’ll just go back to this post.

There are no UZR numbers for McGwire. UZR didn't start until 2002.

Total Zone says he had two great years (89 and 90), three bad years (97, 98, 99) and the rest fall between -6 and 4. So...ok, if you want to squint and call him average, whatever. I think TZ is a little fuzzy though and I wouldn't rely on the exact year to year numbers and instead look at the trend. He had nine negative years and five positive (one at zero). I'd err on the side of McGwire being below average.

Posted by bad_luck on 1/29/2018 12:58:00 PM (view original):

Posted by d_rock97 on 1/29/2018 12:49:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/29/2018 11:37:00 AM (view original):

Posted by d_rock97 on 1/29/2018 11:16:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/29/2018 11:05:00 AM (view original):
So, over a 10 year period, McGwire was worth .8 runs above average. Then, over a 5 year period he was worth -7 per season and you still think he was league average? What kind of calculator do you use?

Yes. .8 runs above average. So he was average. That was the point. He was average.

Do you judge players defensive abilities based on what they did age 33 and up?

Even your precious Don Mattingly was worth a total of -3 fielding runs age 33 and 34.

Or do you remember him by his 35 fielding runs above average from 82-93?

I'd look at their career as a whole if I was evaluating their ability to field. For 1/3 of McGwire's career, he was a statue holding a glove. That's a pretty significant portion of a career to be arguably the worst fielding 1B in the league.

Well that’s just opinion based I guess. Can’t change that. Just like how we’ll be seeing Albert Pujols as a defensive liability until 2021. He was a gold glover and elite defender for the first half of his career. But for a significant portion of his career, he’ll be a statue wearing a glove

I don’t think McGwire was ever really good at defense. Fangraphs has him as significantly below average for all but just a few seasons, where he was average-ish.

Thats different than someone being excellent for a long time and then falling off due to injury and age.

Well for McGwire he’d have some bad years. Then have some good years to cancel it out. He’d go from -6 fielding runs above average to 12 runs above average. Then he stopped having those good years once he got old.

So he fell off due to age, just like Pujols.

So right now, Pujols is 69 fielding runs above average, which is elite, but with the way his career is headed, it’s not out of the realm of possibility that he goes from -2 runs, to -4 runs, to -6 runs and in 5 years he has a career 49 fielding runs above average, and Mike’s all like, “he wasn’t that good, look at Mark Grace. Now he was good. Herka Derka Durr”

So instead of judging him as an elite defender his first 10 years, and a bad one his last 10, Mike will prob judge him as a decent defender.

If you're a bad defender half your career, I'm not sure how you can be anything but average. That said, the numbers you posted for McGwire say his a bad fielder based on his career numbers. It's one thing to drop from slightly above average to slightly below. But he went to statue with a glove for 1/3 of his career.

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/29/2018 2:04:00 PM (view original):
If you're a bad defender half your career, I'm not sure how you can be anything but average. That said, the numbers you posted for McGwire say his a bad fielder based on his career numbers. It's one thing to drop from slightly above average to slightly below. But he went to statue with a glove for 1/3 of his career.

Well, Barry Bonds was great for about a third of his career, good for another third, and terrible for another third.

Does that average out to pretty good?

Probably will come out to slighly above average. To be clear, we're not talking HOF-worthiness. Peak is usually what carries the most weight for HOF. I don't care for many fielding metrics but, if you're negative on your career, there's a good chance you just weren't very good with the glove.

I'm by no means arguing McGwire was a good defender. My argument is that he was average, .8 fielding runs above average per year for the first 10 years, then bad for the last few. But everybody's defense declines when theyre old (in baseball terms), even the players who made a name for themselves because of their defense.So McGwire went from average, to forgetting how to field when he went to the Cards.

Posted by d_rock97 on 1/29/2018 4:57:00 PM (view original):
I'm by no means arguing McGwire was a good defender. My argument is that he was average, .8 fielding runs above average per year for the first 10 years, then bad for the last few. But everybody's defense declines when theyre old (in baseball terms), even the players who made a name for themselves because of their defense.So McGwire went from average, to forgetting how to field when he went to the Cards.

I'm by no means arguing McGwire was a good defender. My argument is that he was average, .8 fielding runs above average per year for the first 10 years, then bad for the last few. But everybody's defense declines when theyre old (in baseball terms), even the players who made a name for themselves because of their defense.So McGwire went from average, to forgetting how to field when he went to the Cards bulking up until he couldn't move anymore.

Posted by toddcommish on 1/29/2018 5:15:00 PM (view original):

Posted by d_rock97 on 1/29/2018 4:57:00 PM (view original):
I'm by no means arguing McGwire was a good defender. My argument is that he was average, .8 fielding runs above average per year for the first 10 years, then bad for the last few. But everybody's defense declines when theyre old (in baseball terms), even the players who made a name for themselves because of their defense.So McGwire went from average, to forgetting how to field when he went to the Cards.

I'm by no means arguing McGwire was a good defender. My argument is that he was average, .8 fielding runs above average per year for the first 10 years, then bad for the last few. But everybody's defense declines when theyre old (in baseball terms), even the players who made a name for themselves because of their defense.So McGwire went from average, to forgetting how to field when he went to the Cards bulking up until he couldn't move anymore.

Also true

Posted by d_rock97 on 1/29/2018 4:57:00 PM (view original):
I'm by no means arguing McGwire was a good defender. My argument is that he was average, .8 fielding runs above average per year for the first 10 years, then bad for the last few. But everybody's defense declines when theyre old (in baseball terms), even the players who made a name for themselves because of their defense.So McGwire went from average, to forgetting how to field when he went to the Cards.

No, he didn't go from average to bad. He went from average to possibly the worst 1B in baseball. And you just want to ignore that he was the worst 1B in baseball for 1/3 of his career. Makes no sense.

He's no John Jaso.

Or David Freese.

Or Pedro Alvarez.

Or Aramis Ramirez.