You're making an assumption that anyone is making a suggestion that they don't believe. To go back to mchales' point, someone can be a 10 packs a day chain smoker and also believe and fully understand the health risks. Someone's previous actions do not immediately mean they don't believe what they are arguing.

To your latter point, yes, someone may legitimately be making an argument just for the hopes of persuading someone to a point of view that provides them an advantage. But that's why we actually take the time to see what the point even is. Not only may they be arguing in good faith, but there may actually be a good idea there that is being discounted outright.

If the idea seems flimsy then sure, point out that it looks like all that they are trying to do is sway opinion to their own advantage. But at the very least find out if the idea is flimsy in the first place.

Posted by alleyviper on 5/8/2015 1:52:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 5/8/2015 1:44:00 PM (view original):

Posted by alleyviper on 5/8/2015 1:36:00 PM (view original):
Regardless how of how hypocritical anyone in this thread may or may not be, believe it or not, someone can be a hypocrite and still make a valid and valuable argument.

Of course, if one is only interested in regurgitating their own opinions and squelching anything that might challenge those opinions, then it's a lot easier just to shout "HYPOCRITE" from the hilltops and not try to actually engage in any critical discussion.

Valid, unlikely.  Valuable, no.   Otherwise, you'd practice what you preach.   Don't tell me "That will force everyone to 20 or 0!!" when you're using 8 or 12 under the exact same circumstances.   That invalidates your opinion thus robbing it of value.

So person A comes along, makes an interesting argument for or against one of the proposed changes. But their past history does not fall in line with the argument they're making. It is invalid.

Person B comes along, makes the exact same interesting argument for or against one of the proposed changes. Their past history does fall in line with the argument they're making. The argument now magically is valid when before the exact some point was invalid.

I see.

It's shocking that the discourse in these forums is in the state it is.

You don't think you should believe in what you say?   Or that you should practice what you say will happen?

In short, if an owner is running 12m in domestic/international scouting for seasons on end, why would he think everyone will go 20 or 0?    He's found his comfort zone, domestic/international determine projections now, why does he think no one else will with ADV?  Because, theoretically, ADV will determine those projections.

It's dishonesty or hypocrisy designed to serve one's desires.

I have no interest in arguing with you unless you have a point.   I don't think you do.  I think you want to argue.   Have a great day.

Is there any idea brought up that's been completely ignored in these 25 pages? Seems unlikely.

Posted by jrnyfan01 on 5/8/2015 2:42:00 PM (view original):
If I zero out my HS/Coll scouting because I can no longer see current ratings and my projected ratings are expected to stink out loud, should I really be forced to maintain $6M in my prospect budget? Hmmm. I should be allowed to punt the draft entirely with the new update.

Because you will draft players and you SHOULD sign them for the health of the world.

Posted by jrnyfan01 on 5/8/2015 2:42:00 PM (view original):
If I zero out my HS/Coll scouting because I can no longer see current ratings and my projected ratings are expected to stink out loud, should I really be forced to maintain $6M in my prospect budget? Hmmm. I should be allowed to punt the draft entirely with the new update.

Sweet!  Refer back to Page 1, Mike's guess that we might see more extreme budgeting.

If this were an option, some owners might already have taken it.

Owners who neglect their minor leagues already let their worlds burn.  Don't sign their draft classes, next season just sign all minor league free agents or tryout players to stock their teams minimally.  Save all that ACTUAL cash for what really matters, IFA.

Rinse, repeat, more owners do it, eventually the world runs out of players.  Seen it actually happen.

My thought is that if they make ADV affect the accuracy in HS/Col/INT prospects projections predraft, they should allow for owners to reset their budgets to $10M with the ability to go to $14M..  

If ADV scouting only affects accuracy on current players projection or current ratings then it shouldnt be an issue..   

Have they clarified this? What I've read through these 25 pages seems to be a lot of speculation.

No, they have not.

They haven't clarified that, but there is no actual evidence that it is gong to happen. Nothing in the HBD update post actually suggests the adv scouting will have anything to do with draft projections.

If ADV only determines rostered player projections, the change isn't going to have much effect on the 0 ADV disciples.   Most of us don't trade for prospects very often and, when we do, we look at budgets for the teams that drafted/signed them.   Seems like those "tools" will still be available.   We just lose development patterns.

And, if that's the case, about 18 pages of this thread can be deleted.

More WC quotes:

Good
I'm just happy they are actually investing in the game and making some updates.
It's a good sign that they're back to trying to adjust/grow the game.
I'm really looking forward to it.
I'm a 0 adv guy. So a little bittersweet for me. Disappointed that advantage is gone, but I'm glad there's an update. However I'm also excited to figure out what the next advantage is going to be.
I like it too, player development is really what drew me to the game in the first place, and it has gotten boring and predictable.
Personally, I LOVE it.
very interesting changes announced that will take place next season......looks like they are taking the advantage of using 20 mill elsewhere instead of scouting.
yes,might need to rethink the 140 mil payroll.
Seems like good changes in principle but we see how well it is applied.
Kinda like the upcoming update. Makes things more interesting, at first glance.
Looking forward to next season already.
I think I like what they're planning...I'd like a bit more info though.
I think this update will go a long way in making this a better game.
That is awesome, I'm happy with that.
I think many of these changes are long overdue.
yeah those are some substantial changes. seems like they are good long-term.
Wow, those are big changes. Guess I will have to revamp my budget strategy.
If it works like advertised, i think it improves the game.
I like it. If you're going to make a budget category might as well make it mean something.
Well, it is a huge unrealistic hole in the AI that many players have ID'd and properly used to their advantage. So I hope this will be a good alteration in practice.
Anything that can change the current IFA system in any way is worth trying.
I love it. I actually don't think it makes rebuilding harder as much as it makes teams have to truly commit to it and it forces teams to truly spend more on scouting, particularly if they are looking at making trades to get younger talent because you are going to need the best projection data you can get and the teams that go high on the advanced budget will get a much more significant benefit now, as they should have all along.
I like the idea of the new IFA system, I think that will work out good. I could see some great players signing for cheap, and some real bad ones signing for big money.
Haha. So they are totally changing how scouting budgets work, but not removing the +/- 4 mil a season rule. So no current owners will be able to effectively adapt their strategies to meet the changes. Smart.
I really like it overall. Should make things more realistic and make it harder to game the IFA system/riskier to overload your prospect signing budget.
I think it is a great change and it is a game mechanic that you can only see projected ratings until you sign a prospect. If we want to talk about not realistic, that would be knowing exactly how good somebody is who hasn't played against advanced competition :)
I really like the updates they detail there. Looking forward to next season and beyond already.
oh nice, some cool new features. Hiding ratings and what not.
pretty cool
I'm pretty excited overall with the changes they seem to be making in this update.
the revamping of intl free agents is actually pretty great because it will level the playing field and make advanced scouting worth something.
I am excited about the variability in prospect development. Should make the game a little less formulaic.
love the thought that DITR might actually help once in a while.
Its early but I am liking the sound of the new update.
yeah, it will force ppl to spend some $$$ in areas that are largely ignored. i like that DITR may actually mean something.
seem like good changes overall. good to see some work coming back to HBD.
I am excited to see how these changes are being implemented and figuring out how to best manipulate my budget to fit the new system and my play style.
Wow, a big update! They're starting to pay attention to HBD again! I like the proposed changes. Sounds like there will be more chance/risk/unknowns involved with development, like in real life.
I have to say, I am excited about the challenge.
Looks like the HBD programmers are putting a bigger emphasis on scouting! Finally!
I think everyone is overthinking it. I think players will now progress with much more variety, which is good thing, and more realistic.
If it works as advertised, I think it's really great: finally, guys like me will get seriously penalized for not spending on advanced scouting.


Bad
It screws experienced owners who don't spend money in AS. God forbid people learn how to do that without spending money on it.
i really don't like the changes - why a fuzzier set of projections? introduces more chance and less skill.
I hate it, I've always been a 0 AS guy. Wish they did this a bit more gradual.
It means I'm screwed in my three worlds.
The solution to the fact that no one cares about advanced scouting is to try to make advanced scouting more important? How about just ditch the category . . .
this update can suck a bag of dicks
This release is messed up. They never fail to disappoint me. Can anyone explain how this makes the game better?
it discourages current users from joining new leagues because you have literally no idea what is happening with the player pool outside of your own roster unless you have very good intuition

I cant imagine that they will make ADV affect projection for undrafted/unsigned prospects without allowing owners to reset their budgets.. I can totally see how making this change would be good long term as it would definitely make ADV more important.. Too many would be screwed by this change and could bail on teams teams that they have marginal interest in which would increase the already large number of openings.. WIS has to have enough sense to where they can make positive changes without ******* a large number of people off.. 

Overwhelmingly positive feedback on the update.

Posted by MikeT23 on 5/8/2015 3:11:00 PM (view original):
If ADV only determines rostered player projections, the change isn't going to have much effect on the 0 ADV disciples.   Most of us don't trade for prospects very often and, when we do, we look at budgets for the teams that drafted/signed them.   Seems like those "tools" will still be available.   We just lose development patterns.

To expand on this, here's how trade chats go now:

I don't know.   His development pattern tells me he's a LF who hits like a CF.
No.   He was the 4th overall pick.
Yeah, I see that but you had 8m in HS scouting.    I don't think you picked well.


It will change to:
I don't know.   His current ratings tells me he's a LF who hits like a CF.
No.  He was the 4th overall pick.
Yeah, I see that but he needs 8 range to be a CF.    I don't think a 3rd year pro will improve that much.
No, he will.  My 20 ADV says he'll be 87 range.
Yeah, I don't so.  Sorry.

Posted by willsauve on 5/8/2015 3:18:00 PM (view original):
I cant imagine that they will make ADV affect projection for undrafted/unsigned prospects without allowing owners to reset their budgets.. I can totally see how making this change would be good long term as it would definitely make ADV more important.. Too many would be screwed by this change and could bail on teams teams that they have marginal interest in which would increase the already large number of openings.. WIS has to have enough sense to where they can make positive changes without ******* a large number of people off.. 

Again, rational people understand that they're all starting at the same place and will make adjustments on the fly while they get where they want to be.

We're both in Mantle.  I don't care that you have a 6m head start in ADV.   There are 20 others guys at 0.    I'll figure something out.  It's a challenge.