Anatomy of a Rushing Play Topic

fermor332002
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Posted by fermor332002 on 12/30/2011 1:43:00 PM (view original):
Posted by hughesjr on 12/30/2011 1:08:00 PM (view original):
Posted by govolswoo on 12/30/2011 12:00:00 PM (view original):
re-reading this, are we saying that all player attributes go into a pool and a collective team rating comes out the other side? some sort of positional and proximity weighted average i assume?
say that if i have one blazing fast WR but 3 other so-so ones, my shotgun average will be dragged down? so far i have been thinking of things as one-on-one matchups. like if my fast WR is +15 speed over his fastest DB then I would assume he would be open all day, advantage me. the QB just keeps exploiting the matchup.
but whats really going on it that on average (for lack of a better word, might not be a true average) his DB corps is faster than my collective WR corps so advantage him?
If I read what norbet said correctly ... it is going to be the players in the GRID that is being looked at who are going to be averaged.

Here is a basic grid picture of 4-3 vs I-Formation:



Here is a  basic representation of that grid.
---------------
P Q R S T
---------------
K L M N O
---------------
F G H I J
--------------
A B C D E 

The OL is in "F - J" ... the DL is in "K - O", etc.

So, the run play #1 starts in C, moves to G then to K for an outside run ... and run play #2 starts in C, moves to H and then M for an inside run. (Just 2 examples).

I think what norbert is saying is that for play #1, the first decision point is in Grid C ... and there is some subset of players in Grid C based on some calculations (maybe all DLs and All LBs on Defense and the OL, TE, FB, HB on Offense).  The runner is stopped or not.  If not stopped, the play then moves to Grid G and there is a different subset of players in that grid for the next decision point (Maybe this time it is the RS, RDE, RDT, ROLB, ILB on defense and the FB,TE, LT, LG, C on Offense that are averaged then).  If he is not stopped then, it moves on to a decision point in Grid K and in that one, the averages are TE, FB on offense and RS, RCB, ROLB on defense.

Does that make sense?


+1 Pie are square.
Ok ok ok. Pie are rectangle.
12/30/2011 1:44 PM
mrfortune3
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Posted by govolswoo on 12/30/2011 1:39:00 PM (view original):

Didnt RGIII throw a monster block last night to spring Ganaway for a TD?

different scheme that isn't in WIS. the option play isn't in the game. wishbone yes, but the option(which is basically what the spread read is)is not. so a QB's real role is to take the snap, and throw or hand off in the game. 
12/30/2011 7:22 PM
bogalicious
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*bump*
5/5/2012 12:09 PM
grindi
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Soooo, On defense if I have half my defense as great players and half crap,  I have a better than 50/50 chance of stopping something no matter which way it is run?  Or There is a chance that all my crappy guys will be on one side of the field while all my stars are on the other.  My best CB is not necessarily on his best WR, nor is my best DT and DE on the strong side of the field.  So it is kind of a coin flip on who is where.  Is that what you are saying?  Conceivably My best OLB, DE, DT, CB, and S could all be on the weak side of the field?  The order we put them in and the order they show up in the play by play means nothing?  Now I see why this has turned in to a game of chance.
5/5/2012 4:40 PM
jhard70
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@ grindi, can you elaborate.  On page 1 Norbert states,  "1.  Set the defensive players on the field based on the offensive formation, depth charts, and fatigue."
5/5/2012 5:00 PM
newmex
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Posted by fermor332002 on 12/30/2011 1:44:00 PM (view original):
Posted by fermor332002 on 12/30/2011 1:43:00 PM (view original):
Posted by hughesjr on 12/30/2011 1:08:00 PM (view original):
Posted by govolswoo on 12/30/2011 12:00:00 PM (view original):
re-reading this, are we saying that all player attributes go into a pool and a collective team rating comes out the other side? some sort of positional and proximity weighted average i assume?
say that if i have one blazing fast WR but 3 other so-so ones, my shotgun average will be dragged down? so far i have been thinking of things as one-on-one matchups. like if my fast WR is +15 speed over his fastest DB then I would assume he would be open all day, advantage me. the QB just keeps exploiting the matchup.
but whats really going on it that on average (for lack of a better word, might not be a true average) his DB corps is faster than my collective WR corps so advantage him?
If I read what norbet said correctly ... it is going to be the players in the GRID that is being looked at who are going to be averaged.

Here is a basic grid picture of 4-3 vs I-Formation:



Here is a  basic representation of that grid.
---------------
P Q R S T
---------------
K L M N O
---------------
F G H I J
--------------
A B C D E 

The OL is in "F - J" ... the DL is in "K - O", etc.

So, the run play #1 starts in C, moves to G then to K for an outside run ... and run play #2 starts in C, moves to H and then M for an inside run. (Just 2 examples).

I think what norbert is saying is that for play #1, the first decision point is in Grid C ... and there is some subset of players in Grid C based on some calculations (maybe all DLs and All LBs on Defense and the OL, TE, FB, HB on Offense).  The runner is stopped or not.  If not stopped, the play then moves to Grid G and there is a different subset of players in that grid for the next decision point (Maybe this time it is the RS, RDE, RDT, ROLB, ILB on defense and the FB,TE, LT, LG, C on Offense that are averaged then).  If he is not stopped then, it moves on to a decision point in Grid K and in that one, the averages are TE, FB on offense and RS, RCB, ROLB on defense.

Does that make sense?


+1 Pie are square.
Ok ok ok. Pie are rectangle.
Pie r round, cornbread r square.
5/5/2012 6:14 PM
harriswb3
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cornbread r good, pie r gooder
5/5/2012 10:59 PM
naturopath
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Posted by hughesjr on 12/30/2011 1:08:00 PM (view original):
Posted by govolswoo on 12/30/2011 12:00:00 PM (view original):
re-reading this, are we saying that all player attributes go into a pool and a collective team rating comes out the other side? some sort of positional and proximity weighted average i assume?
say that if i have one blazing fast WR but 3 other so-so ones, my shotgun average will be dragged down? so far i have been thinking of things as one-on-one matchups. like if my fast WR is +15 speed over his fastest DB then I would assume he would be open all day, advantage me. the QB just keeps exploiting the matchup.
but whats really going on it that on average (for lack of a better word, might not be a true average) his DB corps is faster than my collective WR corps so advantage him?
If I read what norbet said correctly ... it is going to be the players in the GRID that is being looked at who are going to be averaged.

Here is a basic grid picture of 4-3 vs I-Formation:



Here is a  basic representation of that grid.
---------------
P Q R S T
---------------
K L M N O
---------------
F G H I J
--------------
A B C D E 

The OL is in "F - J" ... the DL is in "K - O", etc.

So, the run play #1 starts in C, moves to G then to K for an outside run ... and run play #2 starts in C, moves to H and then M for an inside run. (Just 2 examples).

I think what norbert is saying is that for play #1, the first decision point is in Grid C ... and there is some subset of players in Grid C based on some calculations (maybe all DLs and All LBs on Defense and the OL, TE, FB, HB on Offense).  The runner is stopped or not.  If not stopped, the play then moves to Grid G and there is a different subset of players in that grid for the next decision point (Maybe this time it is the RS, RDE, RDT, ROLB, ILB on defense and the FB,TE, LT, LG, C on Offense that are averaged then).  If he is not stopped then, it moves on to a decision point in Grid K and in that one, the averages are TE, FB on offense and RS, RCB, ROLB on defense.

Does that make sense?


Norbert, is this description by hughesjr on the right track?  His description is kind of how I interpreted what you were describing as well.
5/6/2012 2:03 AM
grindi
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Posted by jhard70 on 5/5/2012 5:00:00 PM (view original):
@ grindi, can you elaborate.  On page 1 Norbert states,  "1.  Set the defensive players on the field based on the offensive formation, depth charts, and fatigue."
Well.  I do believe that players aren't necessarilly left and right espesially on defense.  I"m pretty sure they are referred to as strong side and weak side depending which side of the field the ball is on.  I mean if the offense is running Trips or Shotgun, they aren't going to Stack the short side.  Now the interior linemen on offense don't move but Defensive ends, LBs and DBs do.  I guess if the ball is placed in the center of the field it doesn't matter as much.  I'd like to know why we can't have a say in our run and pass tendancies.  IF it is as it says then the most important people on the field are in the middle of the field.  Why can't we pick a direction to run or pass?  If my opponent has a great corner do you think I'd let my QB throw to him?  I am not going to run at his best defenders.  And as a defensive coach people placement is everything.  Could be why there are so many upsets. Say your team has some fatigue and your DL goes out.  The game chooses run and what do you know it acts like a real coach and probes that weakness.  Then on the other side you keep running at the only 2 good defenders on the other team.  Whose going to get the better of that match up?  Maybe something as simple as directional control would stop some of the upsets.
5/6/2012 8:16 AM
0bigzeke0
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Posted by jhard70 on 5/5/2012 5:00:00 PM (view original):
@ grindi, can you elaborate.  On page 1 Norbert states,  "1.  Set the defensive players on the field based on the offensive formation, depth charts, and fatigue."
You get to put the players on the field by def formation, aggressiveness settings and how fast they sub, but you can't make them match up with best vs best or right vs left. So - what Norbert said was right - you SET them out there and regardless of what the individual talent is they may or may not be the ones the computer picks to be involved. Just a computers random pick for player vs player.
5/6/2012 12:00 PM
jhard70
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Posted by grindi on 5/6/2012 8:16:00 AM (view original):
Posted by jhard70 on 5/5/2012 5:00:00 PM (view original):
@ grindi, can you elaborate.  On page 1 Norbert states,  "1.  Set the defensive players on the field based on the offensive formation, depth charts, and fatigue."
Well.  I do believe that players aren't necessarilly left and right espesially on defense.  I"m pretty sure they are referred to as strong side and weak side depending which side of the field the ball is on.  I mean if the offense is running Trips or Shotgun, they aren't going to Stack the short side.  Now the interior linemen on offense don't move but Defensive ends, LBs and DBs do.  I guess if the ball is placed in the center of the field it doesn't matter as much.  I'd like to know why we can't have a say in our run and pass tendancies.  IF it is as it says then the most important people on the field are in the middle of the field.  Why can't we pick a direction to run or pass?  If my opponent has a great corner do you think I'd let my QB throw to him?  I am not going to run at his best defenders.  And as a defensive coach people placement is everything.  Could be why there are so many upsets. Say your team has some fatigue and your DL goes out.  The game chooses run and what do you know it acts like a real coach and probes that weakness.  Then on the other side you keep running at the only 2 good defenders on the other team.  Whose going to get the better of that match up?  Maybe something as simple as directional control would stop some of the upsets.

That's what I thought you were reffering to.  I was curious because there isn't much difference with the current and the "old" version of GD in this regard. The exception is  the "old" at least allowed you put players in different formations so the likihood of having the players you wanted in the game was greater.

5/6/2012 4:06 PM
grindi
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In the old on your best DB always went against his best WR  I don't know if this engine works this way. We did gain something in this version in that if a team has a propensity of rushing say the middle we can but our best defenders against the rush at DT,, ILB and S.  If he rushes the ends a lot more we can put them at OLB, DE, and CB.  Same way as you can move around your pass defenders if he throw cons and put them toward the middle or out on the edges. 
5/6/2012 5:25 PM
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