To some extent I agree that power is somewhat in a hitter's control. I've heard a a number of people say Ichiro could have hit more homers if he wanted to but went for average over power. Of course, what do I know? I never made it out of little league. I think good hitters like Boggs, Gwynn and Ichiro could have hit more homers at thee expense of average. How many more homers is one question, and whether it would be worth the exchange is another.

I've heard that about Ichiro too, but never saw evidence of it. Boggs, perhaps. I don't know about Gwynn hitting more homers. He didn't seem to have a ton of power.

Ozzie Smith is another guy who had zero in the power department.

Posted by Got_Worms on 5/15/2019 1:43:00 AM (view original):

Posted by d_rock97 on 5/14/2019 10:36:00 PM (view original):

Hall of Fame Statistics

Black Ink

Batting - 17 (141), Average HOFer ˜ 27

Gray Ink

Batting - 143 (107), Average HOFer ˜ 144

Hall of Fame Monitor

Batting - 88 (210), Likely HOFer ˜ 100

Hall of Fame Standards

Batting - 38 (191), Average HOFer ˜ 50

JAWS

First Base (17th): 58.5 career WAR / 46.0 7yr-peak WAR / 52.2JAWS Average HOF 1B (out of 21): 66.8 career WAR / 42.7 7yr-peak WAR / 54.8 JAWS

This is Joey Votto?

Yep. His peak is on par with other HoF first basemen, and he just needs a couple more seasons to be there in counting stats

I mention Butler’s SLG% as it was a flaw in his game. The best hitters combine power and average. Butler had no power so he must make up for it in some other way. His OBP wasn’t super high like a John McGraw. He never led the league in SB. He wasn’t all that efficient either. And he has a negative defensive WAR.

Defense can be overlooked for the best hitters, as that’s how you directly negate that flaw. But he wasn’t a huge run producer to offset that.

Posted by Jtpsops on 5/15/2019 3:34:00 PM (view original):
I've heard that about Ichiro too, but never saw evidence of it. Boggs, perhaps. I don't know about Gwynn hitting more homers. He didn't seem to have a ton of power.

Ozzie Smith is another guy who had zero in the power department.

some players can't hit for power regardless of what they do, but I do think guys like Gwynn, Ichiro and Boggs could have hit for more power if they wanted to. Not saying they;d hit 25+ homers a season, but I think they could have hit more than they did if they wanted to. matter of facts, Bogs had a season where he hit 24 and Gwynn had mid teens a few times.
I think with Ichiro I heard people who had seen him in batting practice hitting a lot of balls out.

Boggs hit 24 HR's in 1987 when everybody was hitting bombs. Even Larry Sheets hit 31!

Yes and Boggs hit a ton of doubles in his career....Also Verlander doesnt get in only becuz of postseason & K's.When a player performs well into their late 30's thats good advantage.Ssbathia -when is his last good year?

His last bad year was 2015...

I never really commented on CC. I think whether he gets in is yet to be determined, which is sort of an odd thing at his age, but he's probably that borderline.

As of right now, if he keeps pitching decently this year and finishes with a season that looks kinda like the past 2, he's going to be almost identical, statistically, to Glavine at the same point in his career. Glavine finished with a few more average to slightly-above-average seasons, pitched until he was 42, and managed to crack 300 wins. Sabathia is no longer dependent on velocity, so he has a chance to do the same. If he does, he gets in. If he doesn't, he probably doesn't.

Of course, that theory is dependent on his deciding not to retire. But he would be far from the first to reverse course on that. I'm still suspicious that as the offseason drags on he's going to miss getting ready to play and look for another 1-year deal.

Posted by dahsdebater on 5/28/2019 2:02:00 PM (view original):
I never really commented on CC. I think whether he gets in is yet to be determined, which is sort of an odd thing at his age, but he's probably that borderline.

As of right now, if he keeps pitching decently this year and finishes with a season that looks kinda like the past 2, he's going to be almost identical, statistically, to Glavine at the same point in his career. Glavine finished with a few more average to slightly-above-average seasons, pitched until he was 42, and managed to crack 300 wins. Sabathia is no longer dependent on velocity, so he has a chance to do the same. If he does, he gets in. If he doesn't, he probably doesn't.

Glavine > Sabathia by a much larger margin than one final above average season.

Well, it was 3.5 seasons.

If you still disagree that through age 37/38 they're likely to look a lot different, you're going to have to explain the differences you see. I mean, obviously CC strikes out a lot more guys, and that had something to do with the fact that he used to throw hard, but I think it's mostly just the difference between the eras in which they pitched. Similarly, CC has fewer CG and more HR allowed, but those both reflect the fact that more HRs are being hit during CC's career and pitchers are being pulled early. They were both exceptional for their eras at eating innings.

Here is each guy through age 37 (this is CC's age 38 season):

	W	L	GS	CG	SHO	IP	K	BB	HR	ERA	WHIP	ERA+
Glavine	251	157	537	52	22	3528	2136	1206	268	3.43	1.300	121
Sabathia	246	153	538	38	12	3470	2986	1060	355	3.7	1.254	117

Also, if you look up most similar by age on BBR for Glavine:

Most Similar by Ages

1. Bob Owchinko (985.0) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
2. Jose Rosado (980.4) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
3. Jose Rosado (981.3) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
4. Britt Burns (975.9) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
5. Britt Burns (980.2) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
6. Ramon Martinez (962.3) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
7. Johnny Podres (969.5) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
8. Johnny Podres (956.0) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
9. Johnny Podres (946.6) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
10. Jack Morris (951.8) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
11. Dwight Gooden (944.6) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
12. Jack Morris (941.0) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
13. CC Sabathia (935.7) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
14. CC Sabathia (930.3) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
15. CC Sabathia (928.0) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
16. CC Sabathia (930.1) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
17. Jack Morris (904.3) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
18. Jack Morris (901.3) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
19. Warren Spahn (882.5) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
20. Early Wynn (877.2) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
21. Early Wynn (874.2) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C

CC is it at the end of each of his 4 most recent seasons.

And flip it and do it for CC:

1. Buttons Briggs (962.5) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
2. Ray Sadecki (959.1) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
3. Ray Sadecki (961.0) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
4. Chuck Stobbs (960.5) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
5. Chuck Stobbs (945.1) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
6. Tony Cloninger (962.7) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
7. Dennis Eckersley (938.3) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
8. Dave McNally (939.7) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
9. Dave McNally (936.9) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
10. Dwight Gooden (950.1) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
11. Dave McNally (916.6) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
12. Dwight Gooden (913.6) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
13. Greg Maddux (899.0) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
14. Tom Glavine (913.6) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
15. Tom Glavine (935.7) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
16. Tom Glavine (930.3) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
17. Tom Glavine (928.0) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
18. Tom Glavine (930.1) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C

Posted by tecwrg on 5/28/2019 2:34:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 5/28/2019 2:02:00 PM (view original):
I never really commented on CC. I think whether he gets in is yet to be determined, which is sort of an odd thing at his age, but he's probably that borderline.

As of right now, if he keeps pitching decently this year and finishes with a season that looks kinda like the past 2, he's going to be almost identical, statistically, to Glavine at the same point in his career. Glavine finished with a few more average to slightly-above-average seasons, pitched until he was 42, and managed to crack 300 wins. Sabathia is no longer dependent on velocity, so he has a chance to do the same. If he does, he gets in. If he doesn't, he probably doesn't.

Glavine > Sabathia by a much larger margin than one final above average season.

Glavine was not all that great. If he didn't get 300 wins, and didn't have all the exposure of playing with Maddux and Smoltz in that rotation, I think he'd have gotten far less support.

Posted by Jtpsops on 5/28/2019 5:28:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 5/28/2019 2:34:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 5/28/2019 2:02:00 PM (view original):
I never really commented on CC. I think whether he gets in is yet to be determined, which is sort of an odd thing at his age, but he's probably that borderline.

As of right now, if he keeps pitching decently this year and finishes with a season that looks kinda like the past 2, he's going to be almost identical, statistically, to Glavine at the same point in his career. Glavine finished with a few more average to slightly-above-average seasons, pitched until he was 42, and managed to crack 300 wins. Sabathia is no longer dependent on velocity, so he has a chance to do the same. If he does, he gets in. If he doesn't, he probably doesn't.

Glavine > Sabathia by a much larger margin than one final above average season.

Glavine was not all that great. If he didn't get 300 wins, and didn't have all the exposure of playing with Maddux and Smoltz in that rotation, I think he'd have gotten far less support.

Glavine should not have won the 1998 Cy Young. Trevor Hoffman actually received more first place votes!