Deliberately throwing games to make money Topic

ooooohdoggie
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Quote: Originally Posted By ooooohdoggie on 1/06/2008




Simulation Baseball and Gardening

For myself I enjoy putting a team together as we do in Progressive Leagues, but my frustration level is such that I don't want to watch the day to day play closely.
Not because I don't care, the opposite may be the case, such as the football coaches wife who can't watch the game unfold because of the wild emotional roller coaster she experiences with the normal ups and downs of a sporting contest.
Now with more drastic fatigue effects programmed into our baseball simulation, my teams will likely be much less set them and forget 'em. And an owner such as myself will incur wrath from the owners who stay on top of their teams.
If I may attempt an analogy I enjoy planning a garden, and I enjoy watching it grow.

But now daily weeding will be much more necessary. And I don't plant a garden so I can have more weeding opportunities in my life.




All Forums > MLB SimLeagues
Topic: TOC Fatigue a joke.




Quote: Originally Posted By grizzly_one on 5/04/2008




Every TOC season is just like this.

88 Howard Johnson batting 8th with 602 PA down to 98% after two games.

93 Phillips 707 PA down to 99 after one game at leadoff.

02 Tannehill with 270 IP will only be 99 for game four after starting game one. I've had the same thing with the 292 IP Mathewson as well.

This is just no fun dealing with the crazy new fatigue. And understand I have always dealt with fatigue issues due to playing a lot of part time guys. But when the full time guys can't go full time, and when I hear some of the best managers in this universe complain they have trouble keeping their bull pen fresh...

Maybe it's because I have more than a dozen teams going now. But keeping up with this game is now a drudgery. It's not fun and I can't wait to finish my current teams and take a break, a long break I think.

This is supposed to be fun...but it's not anymore.

Just thought I'd vent.







5/4/2008 2:55 PM
ArlenWilliam
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The fatigue strategy should be killed off, for general purposes.

Frog legs are good, but the frogs should be killed first, too.
5/4/2008 6:10 PM
Braziman
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I never draft green guys for my teams either.
1/6/2009 4:52 PM
ooooohdoggie
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bumped for Pete Rose Discussion in

All Forums > MLB General Discussion
Topic: Pete Rose


Quote: Originally Posted By ooooohdoggie on 12/21/2007






Quote: "To me, the name of Connie Mack always has been synonymous with baseball, standing for everything that is best for the game he loved." Will Harridge.

Will Harridge was the longtime secretary of American League founder Ban Johnson and was later AL president himself from 1931 to 1959. He was instrumental in the creation of the All-Star Game in 1933.

Quote: "There's never been a morning in my life that I didn't look forward to going to my office." Will Harridge.

... Connie Mack was also tight-fisted.

Seeing baseball as a business, he once confided that it was more profitable to have a team get off to a hot start, then ultimately finish fourth.

"A team like that will draw well enough during the first part of the season to show a profit for the year, and you don't have to give the players raises when they don't win," Connie Mack

How long have there been arguments over the legacy of Joe Jackson, Ty Cobb and other ball players who were accused of throwing games?

Then we have Pete Rose banned for betting on his team to win their games.

Now we have the Mitchell Report and Mark MacGwire's Hall of Fame status in question, as well as perhaps dozens of players in the near future having a cloud over the question of their Hall of Fame credentials.

Has anyone ever stated that Baseball Commissioners, League Presidents, Team Owners or other baseball Officials should not be honored by the Hall of Fame for not trying to win every game? Or cheating in another form?

Baseball was found guilty of colluding against free agent players.

Every major league team fielded 24 players instead of the 25 maximum for part of one season for labor and financial reasons.

If the owners primary goal was winning would every team agree to handicap themselves?

In other sports how commonplace is it to see players have convenient sprained ankles or tendinitis when a different player is ready to be removed from a disabled list.

Basketball eventually raised the roster maximum because of the gamesmanship with the Injured Lists and roster spaces.

Judge Landis is said to have been against Negro League players in Major League baseball. Branch Rickey did not sign Jackie Robinson until after Landis passed away.

If winning was the primary goal baseball would have been integrated before Jackie Robinson, and never would have excluded players in the first place.

Two wrongs do not make a right, but when management decides to do less then their best to win, it is viewed quite differently then how players linked to controversy are viewed.

Otherwise Connie Mack would not be so esteemed, while Joe Jackson, Pete Rose. Barry Bonds, Mark MacGwire and others have tarnished reputations.


4/24/2009 1:04 AM
ooooohdoggie
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All Forums > MLB General Discussion
Topic: Pete Rose




Quote: Originally Posted By bosoxbill on 4/23/2009
The day Pete Rose dies, I start campaigning for his inclusion in the HoF.

A) No sport can survive once you question whether the competitors are playing to win. Gambling, and the resulting suspicion of fixing/throwing, is the worst threat honest sport has.

B) He agreed to a lifetime ban from baseball. They said "we know this and this, and we're going to look into this this and this, or you can accept a lifetime ban." He said, "Where do I sign?"

C) Pete Rose has no respect for the game (as an abstract entity) or The Hall - he only cares about what it's worth to him if he's allowed in.

D) The Hall is diminished without Pete Rose's accomplishments enshrined in it. This is also Pete's fault, as it is a direct result of his actions.

THEREFORE, wait him out. When he's dead and can no longer gain the money/satisfaction that he is absolutely NOT entitled to, then he gets his plaque.

Everyone wins. The Hall is made whole without enriching a man who doesn't deserve to be enriched.





4/24/2009 1:06 AM
Funksteady1
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Quote: Originally Posted By JohnGPF on 12/21/2007
...i wonder if there are any WIS owners who won't draft black players for their teams?
actually I sometimes do the opposite
4/24/2009 7:29 AM
doubletruck
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This post could not be converted. To view the original post's thread, click here.
4/24/2009 12:14 PM
doubletruck
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P.S. -- I've rarely had a fatigue problem of any significance as a result of using my regulars from the beginning of the season. I tried staring my AAA SP in the first game a few times, but all I accomplished was losing openers. I've had enough seasons spoiled by coming up one win short that I'm not game enough to try the fatigue strategy. I also don't want to work that hard at managing a team.

If my SPs show some fatigue at game 4 or game 8, I can stick my AAA in for a start if needed. That makes more sense than just starting him blind in the opening game.
4/24/2009 12:17 PM
baldric
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I think it was me who pointed out the game strategy vs baseball startegy issue. The basic idea isn't mine though, is stems from the fundamental game design rule "mechanics drive gameplay".

In this case the mechanics for fatigue and AB/IP limits and other related systems don't achieve the goal of promoting baseball-like game play. That is not the fault of the players. Many players are going to do what works best, and expecting otherwise is not realistic. Playing a game within the rules as set up by the designer is most certainly not cheating. It may, however suck the fun out of the game for those players who don't want to use optimum but non-baseball tactics, which is a flaw with the game and could well result in a loss of players to games that provide a better baseball "feel". But, again, that is the game designer's fault, not the fault of any player.

The only real solution is to rework the game mechanics to that they appropriately reward baseball-like strategies. Hopefully that will happen.

4/24/2009 5:38 PM
pfattkatt
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Is there any tradition in America more sacred than taking advantage of the vulnerable? More sacred than manipulating the system for personal gain? Maybe the baseball purists should start lobbying WIS to get heard. Squeaky wheels, grease, that sort of thing. The downtrodden need to make a lot of noise for the "powers-that-be" to hear them, and then the downtrodden need to make that noise a long time for the "p-t-b" to take action. Then since the "p-t-b" are doing this primarily for profit, not because they love the sports here represented, it's likely they'll make things worse before they make it better. I'm hoping griz will start doing seminars.
4/24/2009 9:39 PM
ooooohdoggie
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Especially astute observations on Game Design from baldric -



Quote:Originally Posted By baldric on 4/24/2009

I think it was me who pointed out the game strategy vs baseball startegy issue. The basic idea isn't mine though, is stems from the fundamental game design rule "mechanics drive gameplay".

In this case the mechanics for fatigue and AB/IP limits and other related systems don't achieve the goal of promoting baseball-like game play. That is not the fault of the players.

Many players are going to do what works best, and expecting otherwise is not realistic. Playing a game within the rules as set up by the designer is most certainly not cheating. It may, however suck the fun out of the game for those players who don't want to use optimum but non-baseball tactics, which is a flaw with the game and could well result in a loss of players to games that provide a better baseball "feel". But, again, that is the game designer's fault, not the fault of any player.

The only real solution is to rework the game mechanics to that they appropriately reward baseball-like strategies. Hopefully that will happen.



posted in


All Forums > MLB SimLeagues
Topic: Deliberately throwing games to make money





5/7/2009 4:27 PM
ooooohdoggie
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Quote: Originally Posted By ooooohdoggie on 2/01/2008




My new hobbyhorse, fatigue,


kbosch said things quite succintly
The key to success is crafting a team that fits into the design flaws and exploitable parts of the current SIM version. And a bit of logic. That's it.
All Forums > MLB SimLeagues
Topic: NO...THIS IS FUNNY


Quote: Originally Posted By kbosch on 7/24/2007
That's amusing, but I can't see how a few games at the end of a season would hurt fatigue that much.


If it did, then you already farked it up too much during the season.


Also, if your team was that talented, to score endless runs, then they should be good enough to scrap up enough to win one playoff series. Oh well.


The key to success is crafting a team that fits into the design flaws and exploitable parts of the current SIM version. And a bit of logic. That's it.


7/1/2009 8:54 AM
ooooohdoggie
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Quote: Originally Posted By cpdpoet on 12/21/2007
my two cents..........
Someone once likened the type of philosophy in this thread to "gaming strategy" vs "baseball strategy".
The baseball guys get ****** that the gaming guys find these loopholes and exploit them, then it goes back and forth..
I just choose to stay with the baseball guys, but I don't bash the gamers, they're paying their $12.95 too.
If WIS knows about it and let's it go on, well.




10/18/2009 5:51 PM
ooooohdoggie
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Quote: Originally Posted By boogerlips on 11/09/2009
Did you enjoy the update Oooooooooooooooooooooooodoggie?





Gene, Gene the Hitting Machine

Awhile back, @ May 2008, there was an update in the works focusing on Progressive Leagues.

At roughly the same time several discussions helped me to come to the conclusion that the WhatIFSports programming adjustments work at cross purposes.

So despite my initial enthusiasm awaiting that update, I lost hope at that time that the SIM would eventually be signifigantly improved from my viewpoint.

Corrections that dampen the effects of exploited loop holes make the Sim less like real life baseball.

The example that has been hardest for me to accept is having one's team win 3 laughers against a non competative team using a fatigued pitching staff.
Programming was set up so one's team became fatigued itself, at lesser strength then when the series began.

Winning games 30 - 3 in real life refresh a team in the middle of a tight pennant race.

So I lowered my expectations of the SIM.




Quote: Originally Posted By cpdpoet on 12/21/2007


my two cents..........
Someone once likened the type of philosophy in this thread to "gaming strategy" vs "baseball strategy".
The baseball guys get ****** that the gaming guys find these loopholes and exploit them, then it goes back and forth..
I just choose to stay with the baseball guys, but I don't bash the gamers, they're paying their $12.95 too.
If WIS knows about it and let's it go on, well.







11/10/2009 2:42 AM
ooooohdoggie
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Posted by ooooohdoggie on 12/21/2007 9:52:00 AM (view original):


Quote: "To me, the name of Connie Mack always has been synonymous with baseball, standing for everything that is best for the game he loved." Will Harridge.

Will Harridge was the longtime secretary of American League founder Ban Johnson and was later AL president himself from 1931 to 1959. He was instrumental in the creation of the All-Star Game in 1933.

Quote: "There's never been a morning in my life that I didn't look forward to going to my office." Will Harridge.

... Connie Mack was also tight-fisted.

Seeing baseball as a business, he once confided that it was more profitable to have a team get off to a hot start, then ultimately finish fourth.

"A team like that will draw well enough during the first part of the season to show a profit for the year, and you don't have to give the players raises when they don't win," Connie Mack

How long have there been arguments over the legacy of Joe Jackson, Ty Cobb and other ball players who were accused of throwing games?

Then we have Pete Rose banned for betting on his team to win their games.

Now we have the Mitchell Report and Mark MacGwire's Hall of Fame status in question, as well as perhaps dozens of players in the near future having a cloud over the question of their Hall of Fame credentials.

Has anyone ever stated that Baseball Commissioners, League Presidents, Team Owners or other baseball Officials should not be honored by the Hall of Fame for not trying to win every game? Or cheating in another form?

Baseball was found guilty of colluding against free agent players.

Every major league team fielded 24 players instead of the 25 maximum for part of one season for labor and financial reasons.

If the owners primary goal was winning would every team agree to handicap themselves?

In other sports how commonplace is it to see players have convenient sprained ankles or tendinitis when a different player is ready to be removed from a disabled list.

Basketball eventually raised the roster maximum because of the gamesmanship with the Injured Lists and roster spaces.

Judge Landis is said to have been against Negro League players in Major League baseball. Branch Rickey did not sign Jackie Robinson until after Landis passed away.

If winning was the primary goal baseball would have been integrated before Jackie Robinson, and never would have excluded players in the first place.

Two wrongs do not make a right, but when management decides to do less then their best to win, it is viewed quite differently then how players linked to controversy are viewed.

Otherwise Connie Mack would not be so esteemed, while Joe Jackson, Pete Rose. Barry Bonds, Mark MacGwire and others have tarnished reputations.


Connie Mack.
7/19/2021 6:42 AM
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