Winning back to back championships with any school is a major accomplishment even if that school is Penn St. Back to back championships are rare. It's even greater if its at Central Florida compared to Penn St.

Yes, BCS teams can control their OOC schedule but they can't control their in conference schedule. A top quality non BCS team will most likely go undefeated in conference. I am saying this in general, not in the most recent UCF championship.

Posted by tianyi7886 on 8/12/2010 4:17:00 PM (view original):
Why are we trying to bash ebel here? Obviously there's been an argument about conference, prestige, elite status, etc. before I started playing, but I imagine no matter which conference you are in, BCS, non BCS, Mid Major, and no matter what region you are in, winning an NC in D1 is hard. Winning back to back NC is probably very hard?

So why don't we just say nice job and congrats on the win.

if you read all the previous posts, I don't believe anyone is bashing ebel.   Many gave him the props for the NCs. 

I find it also interesting that he would pick one sentence from my (DKC) elaborate post to answer back without addressing any other points.

problem arises when some feel that he is thumping his chest a bit louder than he should.  The accomplishment, while impressive, is not as simple as saying "what an amazing incredible job for guiding a midmajor to back to back NCs" while dismissing the equally incredible advantage of having a conf full of humans whose teams are frankly solid but unimpressive.

he is an excellent coach who used his advantage more effectively than anyone else could in that conf.  But that's not much different from a savy coach who knows how to use his elite advantage effectively.  An elite has a prestige advantage.  UCF has an SOS advantage.

it's a great job that he was able to win back to back NCs at DIA.  That alone is very impressive, period.  But please don't make it more than it should be.

lastly, if you were to dig up the discussion of elite advantage = NCs, you'd find the chicken/egg scenario that gt_deuce mentioned.  Elites tend to be coached by excellent coaches.  That's a confounding variable when arguing that elite = NCs.

I've argued numerous times that excellent coach + any sort of advantage = NCs

the advantage could be location, prestige, and/or SOS in DIA where there is no playoffs.

lastly, you'll notice that all the "discending" posts have been fairly reasonable and classy, but they are been labeled as whining.  I think everyone would agree that a gracious winner would automatically garner more accolates than someone who wants to overhype his success.  We should all look forward to the next time UCF wins the NC because we'll see it posted in the general forum.

Posted by dravz on 8/12/2010 1:58:00 PM (view original):

Posted by ebel331 on 8/12/2010 12:27:00 PM (view original):

Like my man puff say, when you on top people just want to bring you down.  More titles more problems.

"UCF is no worse than a very good BCS school when it comes to recruiting because of the extra conf money." -DKC

Once again, this is pretty funny considering the ridicule I got when I tried to explain that the advantage Elites have over BCS teams is greatly exaggerated but it's well recognized that even Elite>BCS isn't near as great as BCS>MidMajor.  FYI, Camp CUSA got a whopping 60k in bowl money this season. 

I would agree with you on that. The gap between non-BCS and BCS schools is wider than the gap between BCS and Elite. To see that get glossed over in this thread is kinda funny.

ebel: in that case, I stand corrected although I would mention that I am not one who disagreed with your notion of elite advantage been overly exaggerated.

in regards to the gap difference, do you have proof of that?  Do you know as a fact that jconte's programming of the game dictates that prestige gap btw midmajor and BCS is greater than BCS vs elite?

Posted by dravz on 8/12/2010 2:06:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gt_deuce on 8/12/2010 2:00:00 PM (view original):

Posted by ebel331 on 8/12/2010 12:27:00 PM (view original):

Like my man puff say, when you on top people just want to bring you down.  More titles more problems.

"UCF is no worse than a very good BCS school when it comes to recruiting because of the extra conf money." -DKC

Once again, this is pretty funny considering the ridicule I got when I tried to explain that the advantage Elites have over BCS teams is greatly exaggerated but it's well recognized that even Elite>BCS isn't near as great as BCS>MidMajor.  FYI, Camp CUSA got a whopping 60k in bowl money this season. 

Two different contexts.

That argument was discussed around the recruiting advantage.  Which has absolutely zero to do with who wins the NC.  It does't affect end-of-season rankings, nor does it affect in-game results.  Remember, a built-in advantage is only an advantage if you know how to use it.  You may well have just out-recruited people with built-in advantages.  That does not detract, however, from what that advantage is.

You winning the NC in back-to-back seasons from a non-BCS, while mighty impressive, does not develop (in a positive or negative sense) the Elite advantage discussion any further.  It does not disprove the Elite advantage.  It does not diminish whatever the Elite advantage may be.  It only proves that you're a helluva coach and you've used all the tools at your disposal to achieve your stated goal.

But you will recall plague's original argument was the Elite recruiting advantage is what determines the NC winner 97% of the time (or whatever the percentage of elites winning NC's was).

Yes, that was and still is my  argument. Elite advantage is still great, my belief is the recruiting advantage is so great that elites get a high percentage of the best players, and we all know that talent is the greatest advantage in winning NC's, of course coaching is also a factor as a poor coach is not going to win even with great talent... I don't know what the current percentage is of Elites winning NC but I bet it is still in the 90 percentiles.

. If you  remember(and you can look it up) my main argument was comparing Elite to BCS teams, the reason is because  Elites/BCS are on the same playing field in all regards except recruiting. BCS teams have to win the same conference that Elites play, and also beat the in conference Elites during the regular season, something Non BCS teams can avoid. I always went with the idea that Non BCS teams would unlikely be able to compete for the NC because their scheduling would not be up to par against BCS teams, since that elite debate a few  Non BCS teams have made the NC most without ever playing even 1 Elite, or quality BCS team in the regular season.

Posted by doitagain on 8/12/2010 6:10:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dravz on 8/12/2010 1:58:00 PM (view original):

Posted by ebel331 on 8/12/2010 12:27:00 PM (view original):

Like my man puff say, when you on top people just want to bring you down.  More titles more problems.

"UCF is no worse than a very good BCS school when it comes to recruiting because of the extra conf money." -DKC

Once again, this is pretty funny considering the ridicule I got when I tried to explain that the advantage Elites have over BCS teams is greatly exaggerated but it's well recognized that even Elite>BCS isn't near as great as BCS>MidMajor.  FYI, Camp CUSA got a whopping 60k in bowl money this season. 

I would agree with you on that. The gap between non-BCS and BCS schools is wider than the gap between BCS and Elite. To see that get glossed over in this thread is kinda funny.

ebel: in that case, I stand corrected although I would mention that I am not one who disagreed with your notion of elite advantage been overly exaggerated.

in regards to the gap difference, do you have proof of that?  Do you know as a fact that jconte's programming of the game dictates that prestige gap btw midmajor and BCS is greater than BCS vs elite?

Not from JConte, only from experience, DKC. I compare recruiting notes with several other coaches on a regular basis to compare costs (not vs each other, this is across all worlds). The last data point was a decent prestige BCS school with CC's vs a non-BCS school that had not won a CC pretty much ever -- the cost difference was about 40% after accounting for distance. Most people agree on the 10-20% advantage that elites get over comparable BCS schools, and as you can see the drop-off to the non-BCS is twice that. I promise you I'm not making this up.

Posted by plague on 8/12/2010 5:49:00 PM (view original):
Winning back to back championships with any school is a major accomplishment even if that school is Penn St. Back to back championships are rare. It's even greater if its at Central Florida compared to Penn St.

Yes, BCS teams can control their OOC schedule but they can't control their in conference schedule. A top quality non BCS team will most likely go undefeated in conference. I am saying this in general, not in the most recent UCF championship.

And I'm saying it is just as likely that top quality non-BCS team who goes undefeated in conference will still miss the NC game because of that conference schedule. See also: Army/Hayes, Army/Dobie, Bowling Green/Heisman, Rice/Hayes, Memphis/Heisman, San Diego St/Hayes, and so on -- way more frequent than a UCF double NC.

Point being: I'm not ready to call it a SOS advantage just yet -- it is at best a wash imo.

Seriously, how funny is it that we are arguing over 'midmajor advantage'?

Posted by ebel331 on 8/12/2010 7:35:00 PM (view original):
Seriously, how funny is it that we are arguing over 'midmajor advantage'?

I've been that undefeated-in-conference non-BCS team that doesn't get a title shot so often it's almost my specialty now. If anyone thinks there is a SOS advantage I guarantee you are having a grass-is-greener moment.

Hell I had an undefeated season at BC/Dobie and missed the NC game because the ACC had a down season! Advantage my ***, lol.

Posted by ebel331 on 8/12/2010 7:35:00 PM (view original):
Seriously, how funny is it that we are arguing over 'midmajor advantage'?

I think everyone in this thread fails to realize this, and that you pointed out how dead the forums have been, and that you keep trying to keep this argument going.

Congrats on Back to Back.  Keep the thread alive!!

 

Posted by vhoward415 on 8/12/2010 3:51:00 PM (view original):
What I find funny about some coaches who criticize is this..........try ignoring the 'name' of the team and instead look at the roster makeup. If a coach recruits well and is patient, he can build a stacked roster at any school......doesn't matter if it is 'elite', 'bcs', or 'non-bcs'. Trying looking at the rosters of the teams instead of focusing on the conference affiliation.

For the most part, JConte has this game setup to rank his version of 'elites' high at the beginning of each season whether they deserve it or not. Notre Dame (his favorite school) certainly wouldn't be ranked in the top 3 of Camp at the beginning of next season without this setup. As it stands now, Central Florida could win 20 titles in a row and I don't see them being preseason #1 at any time during that run. They must rely on good recruiting, good gameplanning, and a very strong SOS to have a shot at a title.

If anyone still wants to whine about it, try getting some guys to man up and fill up your conference. I for one would love to see the type of 'chaos' we'd create if all D1 conferences in Gridiron Dynasty were full of humans.

You  couldn't do this at a BCS conference. People would get fired. The threshhold is lower at the Non BCS

Posted by dublinuf on 8/12/2010 11:33:00 PM (view original):

Posted by vhoward415 on 8/12/2010 3:51:00 PM (view original):
What I find funny about some coaches who criticize is this..........try ignoring the 'name' of the team and instead look at the roster makeup. If a coach recruits well and is patient, he can build a stacked roster at any school......doesn't matter if it is 'elite', 'bcs', or 'non-bcs'. Trying looking at the rosters of the teams instead of focusing on the conference affiliation.

For the most part, JConte has this game setup to rank his version of 'elites' high at the beginning of each season whether they deserve it or not. Notre Dame (his favorite school) certainly wouldn't be ranked in the top 3 of Camp at the beginning of next season without this setup. As it stands now, Central Florida could win 20 titles in a row and I don't see them being preseason #1 at any time during that run. They must rely on good recruiting, good gameplanning, and a very strong SOS to have a shot at a title.

If anyone still wants to whine about it, try getting some guys to man up and fill up your conference. I for one would love to see the type of 'chaos' we'd create if all D1 conferences in Gridiron Dynasty were full of humans.

You  couldn't do this at a BCS conference. People would get fired. The threshhold is lower at the Non BCS

What's your point? Get coaches to take over the teams that open after firings......the teams should be easier to fill in that scenario because they'll have human recruited players. The alternative is to sit at elites, schedule easy OOC, collude for recruits with your buddies, and run away when things aren't going your way.

Posted by vhoward415 on 8/13/2010 8:13:00 AM (view original):

Posted by dublinuf on 8/12/2010 11:33:00 PM (view original):

Posted by vhoward415 on 8/12/2010 3:51:00 PM (view original):
What I find funny about some coaches who criticize is this..........try ignoring the 'name' of the team and instead look at the roster makeup. If a coach recruits well and is patient, he can build a stacked roster at any school......doesn't matter if it is 'elite', 'bcs', or 'non-bcs'. Trying looking at the rosters of the teams instead of focusing on the conference affiliation.

For the most part, JConte has this game setup to rank his version of 'elites' high at the beginning of each season whether they deserve it or not. Notre Dame (his favorite school) certainly wouldn't be ranked in the top 3 of Camp at the beginning of next season without this setup. As it stands now, Central Florida could win 20 titles in a row and I don't see them being preseason #1 at any time during that run. They must rely on good recruiting, good gameplanning, and a very strong SOS to have a shot at a title.

If anyone still wants to whine about it, try getting some guys to man up and fill up your conference. I for one would love to see the type of 'chaos' we'd create if all D1 conferences in Gridiron Dynasty were full of humans.

You  couldn't do this at a BCS conference. People would get fired. The threshhold is lower at the Non BCS

What's your point? Get coaches to take over the teams that open after firings......the teams should be easier to fill in that scenario because they'll have human recruited players. The alternative is to sit at elites, schedule easy OOC, collude for recruits with your buddies, and run away when things aren't going your way.

and the thread takes another turn, this should be good for about 5 or 6 more pages.

Posted by dublinuf on 8/12/2010 11:33:00 PM (view original):

Posted by vhoward415 on 8/12/2010 3:51:00 PM (view original):
What I find funny about some coaches who criticize is this..........try ignoring the 'name' of the team and instead look at the roster makeup. If a coach recruits well and is patient, he can build a stacked roster at any school......doesn't matter if it is 'elite', 'bcs', or 'non-bcs'. Trying looking at the rosters of the teams instead of focusing on the conference affiliation.

For the most part, JConte has this game setup to rank his version of 'elites' high at the beginning of each season whether they deserve it or not. Notre Dame (his favorite school) certainly wouldn't be ranked in the top 3 of Camp at the beginning of next season without this setup. As it stands now, Central Florida could win 20 titles in a row and I don't see them being preseason #1 at any time during that run. They must rely on good recruiting, good gameplanning, and a very strong SOS to have a shot at a title.

If anyone still wants to whine about it, try getting some guys to man up and fill up your conference. I for one would love to see the type of 'chaos' we'd create if all D1 conferences in Gridiron Dynasty were full of humans.

You  couldn't do this at a BCS conference. People would get fired. The threshhold is lower at the Non BCS

Seems like that's a flaw of WIS, maybe someone add that to the vast suggestion pot.

The problem I have with doing this at a BCS are the elites.  Besides the fact of the recruiting advantage (size varies depending on the coach you're arguing with), most elites are filled around season 12-13 and have been coached since season 12-13.  Rarely ever can you say that about a regular BCS team (with the exception of some of the Big East teams probably).  So besides that recruiting disadvantage you're coming into, you have a prestige disadvantage built in, then the fact that most elites have a 15-45 winning season streak compared to the other teams that some have never had a winning record or maybe have a CC from season 3.

It's just a lot easier coming into a mid-major conference and establishing a team within 3-4 seasons where it's not with a BCS team.   

Posted by dupa220 on 8/13/2010 9:47:00 AM (view original):

Posted by dublinuf on 8/12/2010 11:33:00 PM (view original):

Posted by vhoward415 on 8/12/2010 3:51:00 PM (view original):
What I find funny about some coaches who criticize is this..........try ignoring the 'name' of the team and instead look at the roster makeup. If a coach recruits well and is patient, he can build a stacked roster at any school......doesn't matter if it is 'elite', 'bcs', or 'non-bcs'. Trying looking at the rosters of the teams instead of focusing on the conference affiliation.

For the most part, JConte has this game setup to rank his version of 'elites' high at the beginning of each season whether they deserve it or not. Notre Dame (his favorite school) certainly wouldn't be ranked in the top 3 of Camp at the beginning of next season without this setup. As it stands now, Central Florida could win 20 titles in a row and I don't see them being preseason #1 at any time during that run. They must rely on good recruiting, good gameplanning, and a very strong SOS to have a shot at a title.

If anyone still wants to whine about it, try getting some guys to man up and fill up your conference. I for one would love to see the type of 'chaos' we'd create if all D1 conferences in Gridiron Dynasty were full of humans.

You  couldn't do this at a BCS conference. People would get fired. The threshhold is lower at the Non BCS

Seems like that's a flaw of WIS, maybe someone add that to the vast suggestion pot.

The problem I have with doing this at a BCS are the elites.  Besides the fact of the recruiting advantage (size varies depending on the coach you're arguing with), most elites are filled around season 12-13 and have been coached since season 12-13.  Rarely ever can you say that about a regular BCS team (with the exception of some of the Big East teams probably).  So besides that recruiting disadvantage you're coming into, you have a prestige disadvantage built in, then the fact that most elites have a 15-45 winning season streak compared to the other teams that some have never had a winning record or maybe have a CC from season 3.

It's just a lot easier coming into a mid-major conference and establishing a team within 3-4 seasons where it's not with a BCS team.   

dupa makes a good point. People rarely get fired at a mid major, its almost impossible.I coach in the Big10 and the reward I get for taking a rebuild to 10 win seasons and bowl appearances is little to no jeopardy. As for the elite teams having an advantage i can attest to it. Two recruits ago I'm on a DL with an elite and I'm behind after signings. At that point I had 50k in the guy and in the next 5 cycles i put another 25k into him so after the fifth cycle the player quckly signs with the elite. Looks like a clear advantage to me. I have rarely beaten an elite for a recruit, and I do take them on for a couple every season. Maybe if others would challenge them we'd have a chance, but I refuse to take a subpar class just so I can beat an elite for one top player. It appears to me that the teams in a BCS conference that gain the most from being full are the elites.

The one big advantage that I see mid majors having is in the bowl selections. Winning their CC guarantees them a level4 bowl regardless of a weak and undeserving schedule. This is something I'd like to see changed. Why are better and more desreving teams passed over for the more prestigious and higher paying reward points bowl? Seems to me the reward for playing 11 or 12 sim teams should be less.

My appraisal of GD 1A. The teams at the biggest disadvantage are the BCS non elites. Easiset place to get fired and you have to compete both on and off the field against elite teams. Still my favorite level and place to play though.

All of this is crap.  I ain't impressed until I see a team win the DI-A national championship with a DIII team.