Bad Beats in Recruiting Odds Topic

Posted by hughesjr on 12/13/2022 4:02:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Fregoe on 12/12/2022 12:49:00 PM (view original):
My main goal is to just see it makes sense to get as many "better" recruits to High.
I really do think the numbers, except for maybe 3-way VH-VH-H battles seem to work out as expected.

If you get 10 guys to 67-33 ahead .. you should win 6.7 players. You would need to get 20 players to 33% to mathematically win the same number of players.

So, the question becomes, is it cheaper to get 20 players to high or 10 players to very high.
Yeah, and this is more or less what I've found in the limited number of seasons I've tried out this approach. But the big reason I don't use it more, or recommend using it more, is that I have less control over who ends up on my team. If I'm rebuilding, it's probably a decent approach, especially if I'm playing zone and only really looking for 9-10 players on a roster anyway. But for established programs, it's not what I want.
12/14/2022 11:32 AM
Posted by hughesjr on 12/13/2022 4:02:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Fregoe on 12/12/2022 12:49:00 PM (view original):
My main goal is to just see it makes sense to get as many "better" recruits to High.
I really do think the numbers, except for maybe 3-way VH-VH-H battles seem to work out as expected.

If you get 10 guys to 67-33 ahead .. you should win 6.7 players. You would need to get 20 players to 33% to mathematically win the same number of players.

So, the question becomes, is it cheaper to get 20 players to high or 10 players to very high.
This is probably a stupid and annoying comment, but I think the best value is not being in a roll at all. If you can get to VH v H, that means you weren't that far from VH v moderate. Pricing wise, I think that's a much better value if that if that means the back half of your recruiting classes are filled with fairly average role players because you were so committed to the top guys.

This is a theoretical exercise, because you could never guarantee yourself any of these options, but id prefer in this order

6VH to M
10VH to H
20H to VH

There's just way too much variance in the last option and commonly see people getting overstretched trying to be in on too many recruits.
12/14/2022 12:22 PM
Posted by texashick on 12/14/2022 12:22:00 PM (view original):
Posted by hughesjr on 12/13/2022 4:02:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Fregoe on 12/12/2022 12:49:00 PM (view original):
My main goal is to just see it makes sense to get as many "better" recruits to High.
I really do think the numbers, except for maybe 3-way VH-VH-H battles seem to work out as expected.

If you get 10 guys to 67-33 ahead .. you should win 6.7 players. You would need to get 20 players to 33% to mathematically win the same number of players.

So, the question becomes, is it cheaper to get 20 players to high or 10 players to very high.
This is probably a stupid and annoying comment, but I think the best value is not being in a roll at all. If you can get to VH v H, that means you weren't that far from VH v moderate. Pricing wise, I think that's a much better value if that if that means the back half of your recruiting classes are filled with fairly average role players because you were so committed to the top guys.

This is a theoretical exercise, because you could never guarantee yourself any of these options, but id prefer in this order

6VH to M
10VH to H
20H to VH

There's just way too much variance in the last option and commonly see people getting overstretched trying to be in on too many recruits.
Well, sure. But in D1, for decent players, that is really hardly ever happening (keep everyone under H) :)

I mean, maybe if you are Duke or Kentucky and have been A+ for 20 seasons.
12/14/2022 2:50 PM
Posted by hughesjr on 12/14/2022 2:52:00 PM (view original):
Posted by texashick on 12/14/2022 12:22:00 PM (view original):
Posted by hughesjr on 12/13/2022 4:02:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Fregoe on 12/12/2022 12:49:00 PM (view original):
My main goal is to just see it makes sense to get as many "better" recruits to High.
I really do think the numbers, except for maybe 3-way VH-VH-H battles seem to work out as expected.

If you get 10 guys to 67-33 ahead .. you should win 6.7 players. You would need to get 20 players to 33% to mathematically win the same number of players.

So, the question becomes, is it cheaper to get 20 players to high or 10 players to very high.
This is probably a stupid and annoying comment, but I think the best value is not being in a roll at all. If you can get to VH v H, that means you weren't that far from VH v moderate. Pricing wise, I think that's a much better value if that if that means the back half of your recruiting classes are filled with fairly average role players because you were so committed to the top guys.

This is a theoretical exercise, because you could never guarantee yourself any of these options, but id prefer in this order

6VH to M
10VH to H
20H to VH

There's just way too much variance in the last option and commonly see people getting overstretched trying to be in on too many recruits.
Well, sure. But in D1, for decent players, that is really hardly ever happening (keep everyone under H) :)

I mean, maybe if you are Duke or Kentucky and have been A+ for 20 seasons.
I think that's the common perception, but not always the case. Sure, Im running two A+ baseline prestige teams, those should be excluded from this conversation. That's a completely different ballgame. But looking at my notes for A- TCU team (that's a C baseline), of my last 24 players, Ive only rolled on three of them. That's been a successful team that's just hasn't had many drafted players since I took over because I choose to avoid the first and 2nd tier of recruits. While the rest of Texas/OK/LA fight over the EE types for the first 5-8 cycles, I get a big moat on the players that will be successful but not stars.
I don't have clear enough notes from when I took over at C- to put a number on it, but I can tell you with reasonable assurance I've averaged about one roll a season and commonly have zero.

I get on my most key recruits early, move off them when a higher prestige coach shows up, and if no one shows, they still get a huge AP allotment. I rarely spend money until signing day. And I almost always sign at least one player for essentially free that will likely ride my bench all 4 seasons.

Not trying to be contentious, I just commonly see coaches in battles they have no business being in. It's my perception that the coaches that try the "lets get to high on a ton of recruits" strategy are inevitably the ones complaining about rolls or rage quitting when the dice don't come up their way for a season.
12/14/2022 3:31 PM
i think texashick makes some good points, there's a bunch of ways to skin the cat and that is certainly a valid take. the only thing i really take exception to is the notion that a VH-H battle is close to very high / moderate. it seems to take a boatload of effort to turn a 60-40 into an 80-20, and still quite a bit to turn a 70-30 into a 81-19.
12/14/2022 8:24 PM
Posted by texashick on 12/14/2022 3:31:00 PM (view original):
Posted by hughesjr on 12/14/2022 2:52:00 PM (view original):
Posted by texashick on 12/14/2022 12:22:00 PM (view original):
Posted by hughesjr on 12/13/2022 4:02:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Fregoe on 12/12/2022 12:49:00 PM (view original):
My main goal is to just see it makes sense to get as many "better" recruits to High.
I really do think the numbers, except for maybe 3-way VH-VH-H battles seem to work out as expected.

If you get 10 guys to 67-33 ahead .. you should win 6.7 players. You would need to get 20 players to 33% to mathematically win the same number of players.

So, the question becomes, is it cheaper to get 20 players to high or 10 players to very high.
This is probably a stupid and annoying comment, but I think the best value is not being in a roll at all. If you can get to VH v H, that means you weren't that far from VH v moderate. Pricing wise, I think that's a much better value if that if that means the back half of your recruiting classes are filled with fairly average role players because you were so committed to the top guys.

This is a theoretical exercise, because you could never guarantee yourself any of these options, but id prefer in this order

6VH to M
10VH to H
20H to VH

There's just way too much variance in the last option and commonly see people getting overstretched trying to be in on too many recruits.
Well, sure. But in D1, for decent players, that is really hardly ever happening (keep everyone under H) :)

I mean, maybe if you are Duke or Kentucky and have been A+ for 20 seasons.
I think that's the common perception, but not always the case. Sure, Im running two A+ baseline prestige teams, those should be excluded from this conversation. That's a completely different ballgame. But looking at my notes for A- TCU team (that's a C baseline), of my last 24 players, Ive only rolled on three of them. That's been a successful team that's just hasn't had many drafted players since I took over because I choose to avoid the first and 2nd tier of recruits. While the rest of Texas/OK/LA fight over the EE types for the first 5-8 cycles, I get a big moat on the players that will be successful but not stars.
I don't have clear enough notes from when I took over at C- to put a number on it, but I can tell you with reasonable assurance I've averaged about one roll a season and commonly have zero.

I get on my most key recruits early, move off them when a higher prestige coach shows up, and if no one shows, they still get a huge AP allotment. I rarely spend money until signing day. And I almost always sign at least one player for essentially free that will likely ride my bench all 4 seasons.

Not trying to be contentious, I just commonly see coaches in battles they have no business being in. It's my perception that the coaches that try the "lets get to high on a ton of recruits" strategy are inevitably the ones complaining about rolls or rage quitting when the dice don't come up their way for a season.
Yeah, you really need to pick your spots and avoid rolls as much as possible and have a backup plan if the roll doesn't go your way. Easier said then done for sure, but using all of your resrouces to get into a bunch of battles every recruiting session isn't a strategy for sustained success. Having the discipline to back off a recruit that you've been targeting from day 1 is critical and I imagine a lot of guys struggle with this due a competitive/pride thing. Going max HV/CV just to get into a 3 way battle on any recruit is a stupid decision every time.

Signing guys for free as you mentioned is such a huge benefit and really opens up your options. And the added bonus of not getting into battles is that the guys you signed are much more likely to stay all 4 years.

12/15/2022 12:16 PM
Just coming to say that the current recruiting system sucks balls. Yes, I am salty at always losing recruits with chances north of 70%. Look, let's be honest; this doesn't happen in real life. The 25% team never wins in real life. Once you get beyond 60-40, it shouldn't be considered a recruiting battle, and the actual odds of a recruiting upset should drop off drastically. In fact, I think it's the opposite; I think the Sim massages the numbers the other way, and the odds shown on the Considering tab aren't actually what the Sim uses to determine who "wins" the battle.
12/16/2022 6:15 PM
Posted by hughesjr on 12/13/2022 4:02:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Fregoe on 12/12/2022 12:49:00 PM (view original):
My main goal is to just see it makes sense to get as many "better" recruits to High.
I really do think the numbers, except for maybe 3-way VH-VH-H battles seem to work out as expected.

If you get 10 guys to 67-33 ahead .. you should win 6.7 players. You would need to get 20 players to 33% to mathematically win the same number of players.

So, the question becomes, is it cheaper to get 20 players to high or 10 players to very high.
Fregoe....I do not agree with your comment that "the numbers seem to work out as expected". I have been keeping track of my recruiting stats for quite some time now.....really can't say how many seasons, but if I had to guess probably 20-30 recruiting sessions. ... I have a "winning" percentage of 33% of those recruits where I have been the underdog,regardless of how much of an underdog I was. I do believe that this is an acceptable percentage. Prior to the change in recruiting, anyone below and A- grade could not involve themselves in trying to get some of the best players. Now they can.....and I believe it is in the best interest of the game. Teams in the C+ to B+ range now have an opportunity to improve their recruiting if they are willing to gamble. Obviously, I don't know what the total stats are, just the stats that I have been documenting for my team. My problem is related to the odds when I "have won" the recruiting battle but lose the recruit to another team. If I am successful 33% of the time when I am behind in effort, then I would expect my team to be approximately 67% if I am ahead in effort. This has not been the case. My percentage of signings when "winning" the recruiting battle is only 46%....a LONG ways away from the expected 67%. I only have a winning percentage of 53% when AHEAD BY 20+ PERCENTAGE POINTS!!! This percentage, IMO, should be at 67% + or -. My "winning percentage" when ahead by 1-19 percentage points is a mere 41%. I should imagine that this percentage should balance to a 50-50 split, at minimum.
12/21/2022 7:11 PM (edited)
That's great that you don't agree But I didn't say it.
12/21/2022 4:16 PM
I am in agreement with you. The numbers seem to favor me as a C+-B+ coach to get into battles as High and gamble. Its been working out GREAT for every school except Coppin state where I have gotten hammered in recruiting the last two seasons.
12/21/2022 4:19 PM
Posted by Fregoe on 12/21/2022 4:16:00 PM (view original):
That's great that you don't agree But I didn't say it.
maybe I misread the post.....
12/21/2022 7:12 PM
Posted by smackawits on 12/21/2022 7:12:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Fregoe on 12/21/2022 4:16:00 PM (view original):
That's great that you don't agree But I didn't say it.
maybe I misread the post.....
you replied to hughes replying to fregoe
12/23/2022 3:27 PM
Team +I31HA1:I41 Year Player Fav Dog Winner winning team
Coppin St 188 Glenn Miligan 62 38 Underdog Coppin
Drake 168 Jan Threlkeld 57 43 undergod Missouri
Wyoming 169 Thomas Mathis 74 26 Underdog Air Force
Miss V St 134 Jason Morejon 63 37 undergod Miss V St
Coppin St 189 Shawn Smith 49 30 underdog Morgan St
Coppin St 189 Jay Barrett 58 42 underdog Coppin St
Miss V St 135 Jason Morejon 63 37 Underdog Miss St
Clemson 132 Richard Lebel 74 26 Fav Indiana
Boise St 129 Douglas Vogel 69 31 Fav Gonzaga
Wyoming 170 Tim Ward 75 25 Fav Gonzaga
Wyoming 170 JR Nagata 69 31 Fav Iowa St
Lamar 135 Fred McCullough 76 24 Fav Lamar
Drake 170 Ahmad Whitehill 71 29 Fav Drake
Drake 170 Zach Parks 55 23 Fav Illinois
Drake 170 Roy Jones 48 17 Underdog ND
Clemson Craig Bryant 51 49 Fav Vandy
Drake 170 Ruben Mullins 38 12 Fav Missouri 5 WAY ROLL
Miss V St 135 Daniel Puckett 66 34 Fav Alcorn st
Miss V St 135 eric Hemphill 72 27 fav Drake
Coppin St 191 j Cambell 57 23 fav Pitt 3 Way
Miss Valley St 135 Brandon Randolph 53 47 Undedog G Tech
Miss Valley St 135 Bryant Wetzstein 74 26 underdog Tenn Martin
Miss Valley St 135 John Park 59 20 Fav Aub
Prarie View 134 James Phillips 53 47 Underdog Florida St
Coppin St 192 Michael Larose 68 32 Underdog Coppin St
Coppin St 192 Thad Evans 72 28 Underdog Clev St
Drake 172 William Chilton 53 18 Fav Hou 3 way
Clemson 134 Bryan Lacy 57 43 Underdog Clemson
Clemson 134 Michael Williams 51 19 undergod Clemson 3 way
Prarie View 135 Hults 72 28 underdog Houston
Miss V State 136 Tyler Smith 55 45 underdog Ark Pine B
Prarie View 135 Kerry Phillippi 68 32 Fav Prarie View
Lamar 137 James Mingus 59 41 underdog PrarieView
Coppin St 193 Elmer Redden 61 39 underdog wagner
Coppin St 193 Micahel Dillard 54 46 unerdog Coppin St
West Virginia 137 Mathew Gilchrist 52 48 underdog West Virginia
Texas SA 173 Roy Samons 57 43 Underdog Oklahoma
Texas SA 173 John Baehr 48 20 Fav Oklahoma 3 way
Texas SA 173 James Vaetch 51 49 Fav New Mexico
Coppin St 193 James Knight 50 20 Fav Maryland 3 way
Lamar 137 Edward Fecteau 74 26 Fav Oklahoma St
West Virginia 137 Dennis Dixon 51 20 Underdog West Virginia
Texas SA 174 Norman Pack 74 26 Fav Texas SA
Drake 174 Mike Harris 74 26 underdog Drake
Drake 174 Jack Roth 49 51 Underdog Drake
Coppin St 193 Earnst Shiffer 52 19 fav Maryland 3 way
Gonzaga 136 Tony Corp 67 33 fav AZ St
Bucknell 138 George Dingus 42 19 underdog Bucknell 19% 3 way
1/30/2023 3:08 PM
Posted by Fregoe on 1/30/2023 3:08:00 PM (view original):
Team +I31HA1:I41 Year Player Fav Dog Winner winning team
Coppin St 188 Glenn Miligan 62 38 Underdog Coppin
Drake 168 Jan Threlkeld 57 43 undergod Missouri
Wyoming 169 Thomas Mathis 74 26 Underdog Air Force
Miss V St 134 Jason Morejon 63 37 undergod Miss V St
Coppin St 189 Shawn Smith 49 30 underdog Morgan St
Coppin St 189 Jay Barrett 58 42 underdog Coppin St
Miss V St 135 Jason Morejon 63 37 Underdog Miss St
Clemson 132 Richard Lebel 74 26 Fav Indiana
Boise St 129 Douglas Vogel 69 31 Fav Gonzaga
Wyoming 170 Tim Ward 75 25 Fav Gonzaga
Wyoming 170 JR Nagata 69 31 Fav Iowa St
Lamar 135 Fred McCullough 76 24 Fav Lamar
Drake 170 Ahmad Whitehill 71 29 Fav Drake
Drake 170 Zach Parks 55 23 Fav Illinois
Drake 170 Roy Jones 48 17 Underdog ND
Clemson Craig Bryant 51 49 Fav Vandy
Drake 170 Ruben Mullins 38 12 Fav Missouri 5 WAY ROLL
Miss V St 135 Daniel Puckett 66 34 Fav Alcorn st
Miss V St 135 eric Hemphill 72 27 fav Drake
Coppin St 191 j Cambell 57 23 fav Pitt 3 Way
Miss Valley St 135 Brandon Randolph 53 47 Undedog G Tech
Miss Valley St 135 Bryant Wetzstein 74 26 underdog Tenn Martin
Miss Valley St 135 John Park 59 20 Fav Aub
Prarie View 134 James Phillips 53 47 Underdog Florida St
Coppin St 192 Michael Larose 68 32 Underdog Coppin St
Coppin St 192 Thad Evans 72 28 Underdog Clev St
Drake 172 William Chilton 53 18 Fav Hou 3 way
Clemson 134 Bryan Lacy 57 43 Underdog Clemson
Clemson 134 Michael Williams 51 19 undergod Clemson 3 way
Prarie View 135 Hults 72 28 underdog Houston
Miss V State 136 Tyler Smith 55 45 underdog Ark Pine B
Prarie View 135 Kerry Phillippi 68 32 Fav Prarie View
Lamar 137 James Mingus 59 41 underdog PrarieView
Coppin St 193 Elmer Redden 61 39 underdog wagner
Coppin St 193 Micahel Dillard 54 46 unerdog Coppin St
West Virginia 137 Mathew Gilchrist 52 48 underdog West Virginia
Texas SA 173 Roy Samons 57 43 Underdog Oklahoma
Texas SA 173 John Baehr 48 20 Fav Oklahoma 3 way
Texas SA 173 James Vaetch 51 49 Fav New Mexico
Coppin St 193 James Knight 50 20 Fav Maryland 3 way
Lamar 137 Edward Fecteau 74 26 Fav Oklahoma St
West Virginia 137 Dennis Dixon 51 20 Underdog West Virginia
Texas SA 174 Norman Pack 74 26 Fav Texas SA
Drake 174 Mike Harris 74 26 underdog Drake
Drake 174 Jack Roth 49 51 Underdog Drake
Coppin St 193 Earnst Shiffer 52 19 fav Maryland 3 way
Gonzaga 136 Tony Corp 67 33 fav AZ St
Bucknell 138 George Dingus 42 19 underdog Bucknell 19% 3 way
I was curious what you were trying to communicate with this data set, so I took a quick look. Assuming i did the math right, the favorite was expected to win 60% of the time (or 29/48 players). They were actually the winner 45% of the time, signing 22 players. That's interesting, but I think the sample size is still way to small to draw meaningful conclusions. Definitely interesting though and I appreciate you tracking. Keep us posted
1/31/2023 4:56 PM
Team +I31HA1:I41 Year Player Fav Dog Winner winning team
Coppin St 188 Glenn Miligan 62 38 Underdog Coppin
Drake 168 Jan Threlkeld 57 43 undergod Missouri
Wyoming 169 Thomas Mathis 74 26 Underdog Air Force
Miss V St 134 Jason Morejon 63 37 undergod Miss V St
Coppin St 189 Shawn Smith 49 30 underdog Morgan St
Coppin St 189 Jay Barrett 58 42 underdog Coppin St
Miss V St 135 Jason Morejon 63 37 Underdog Miss St
Clemson 132 Richard Lebel 74 26 Fav Indiana
Boise St 129 Douglas Vogel 69 31 Fav Gonzaga
Wyoming 170 Tim Ward 75 25 Fav Gonzaga
Wyoming 170 JR Nagata 69 31 Fav Iowa St
Lamar 135 Fred McCullough 76 24 Fav Lamar
Drake 170 Ahmad Whitehill 71 29 Fav Drake
Drake 170 Zach Parks 55 23 Fav Illinois
Drake 170 Roy Jones 48 17 Underdog ND
Clemson 133 Craig Bryant 51 49 Fav Vandy
Drake 170 Ruben Mullins 38 12 Fav Missouri 5 WAY ROLL
Miss V St 135 Daniel Puckett 66 34 Fav Alcorn st
Miss V St 135 eric Hemphill 72 27 fav Drake
Coppin St 191 j Cambell 57 23 fav Pitt 3 Way
Miss Valley St 135 Brandon Randolph 53 47 Undedog G Tech
Miss Valley St 135 Bryant Wetzstein 74 26 underdog Tenn Martin
Miss Valley St 135 John Park 59 20 Fav Aub
Prarie View 134 James Phillips 53 47 Underdog Florida St
Coppin St 192 Michael Larose 68 32 Underdog Coppin St
Coppin St 192 Thad Evans 72 28 Underdog Clev St
Drake 172 William Chilton 53 18 Fav Hou 3 way
Clemson 134 Bryan Lacy 57 43 Underdog Clemson
Clemson 134 Michael Williams 51 19 undergod Clemson 3 way
Prarie View 135 Hults 72 28 underdog Houston
Miss V State 136 Tyler Smith 55 45 underdog Ark Pine B
Prarie View 135 Kerry Phillippi 68 32 Fav Prarie View
Lamar 137 James Mingus 59 41 underdog PrarieView
Coppin St 193 Elmer Redden 61 39 underdog wagner
Coppin St 193 Micahel Dillard 54 46 unerdog Coppin St
West Virginia 137 Mathew Gilchrist 52 48 underdog West Virginia
Texas SA 173 Roy Samons 57 43 Underdog Oklahoma
Texas SA 173 John Baehr 48 20 Fav Oklahoma 3 way
Texas SA 173 James Vaetch 51 49 Fav New Mexico
Coppin St 193 James Knight 50 20 Fav Maryland 3 way
Lamar 137 Edward Fecteau 74 26 Fav Oklahoma St
West Virginia 137 Dennis Dixon 51 20 Underdog West Virginia
Texas SA 174 Norman Pack 74 26 Fav Texas SA
Drake 174 Mike Harris 74 26 underdog Drake
Drake 174 Jack Roth 49 51 Underdog Drake
Coppin St 193 Earnst Shiffer 52 19 fav Maryland 3 way
Gonzaga 136 Tony Corp 67 33 fav AZ St
Bucknell 138 George Dingus 42 19 underdog Bucknell 19% 3 way
Texas SA 175 Stacy Champion 56 44 fav Texas SA
West Virginia 138 John Hairston 63 37 Fav Providence
Drake 175 William Hudson 56 44 underdog Creghton
Coppin St 195 Don Baltes 59 41 underdog Columbia
Drake 175 Jeffrey Rush 70 30 underdog Drake
Boise St 133 William Griffin 52 48 underdog Idaho
Bucknell 139 Mark Ramsey 69 31 underdog Bucknell
Texas SA 176 Kurtis Hoover 48 16 Fav Ok St
3/2/2023 1:02 PM
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