Selig should grow some balls... Topic

Jtpsops
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Quote: Originally posted by edsortails on 6/03/2010nope....not tainted, I have decided pitcher juggled the ball....watch it bounce in his gloveif he catches it clean,he gets the call see how easy that was?

Or perhaps someone should introduce Cabrera to Carlos Guillen...the guy playing second base...you know, the position where Cabrera, who should have been on the bag at first, went to retrieve that ball, leading to the controversy at first.
6/3/2010 9:50 PM
Jtpsops
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I would have liked to see the call reversed, but I really don't care either way, because not overturning it supports the human element of the game, which I'm a big advocate for.

As for everyone talking about precedent, etc...talking about the 1985 WS, as has already been stated, is comparing apples to oranges in every sense of the word.

Overturning last night's call would have done NOTHING to change the outcome, except take away a hit from Donald. That's it, and I'm sure even the Indians wouldn't have put up much of a fight.

Had the next hitter after Donald singled, and then the game ended, you don't even consider it. The fact that it was (would have been) the final out and the next hitter was retired, there's no continuation or chain reaction to consider...there are no "WHAT IFS" (no pun intended) if you change the call. That is what those in favour of reversing it are saying. Both sides have a valid argument, but again calls like the 1985 WS have nothing to do with it. Perhaps Andujar should have recorded the next out, like Galarraga did.

An interesting thought from Bob Costas though....he said perhaps it's better this way, as Galarraga may now be remembered more in history than if he even threw the perfect game. Perfect games have very little defining power over a career. Guys like Koufax, Unit and Halladay will be remembered because they're incredible/the best at what they do, not because they threw perfect games. Likewise, how many people will remember names like Lee Richmond, Len Barker and Tom Browning?

Galarraga is now part of a more memorable game in MLB history and possibly part of a huge turning point in the game's history, if it leads to the expansion of replay.
6/3/2010 9:57 PM
tecwrg
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Quote: Originally Posted By tecwrg on 6/03/2010

Another good point, from this posting in the Hardball Times:

Armando Galarraga will probably be more remembered for this, much like Harvey Haddix was for his 12-inning non-perfecto, than he would be if he had just had a "normal" perfect game. Assuming that Bud doesn't do anything really stupid, like overturn Joyce's call, this game will live on for years to come as "the Galarraga game".

Otherwise, it might just be a footnote in the history books as a freak event by a journeyman pitcher, much like Len Barker's gem in 1981.

Pretty much what Costas said.
6/3/2010 10:14 PM
Jtpsops
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Ya, I glanced over the thread...didn't catch that post.

Plus, Costas also said that perhaps it's better for baseball in a weird way, as 3 perfect games in a month could possibly downgrade the achievement.
6/3/2010 10:25 PM
Arte
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Quote: Originally Posted By tecwrg on 6/03/2010
Quote: Originally Posted By Arte on 6/03/2010

Quote: Originally Posted By tecwrg on 6/03/2010

Quote: Originally Posted By Arte on 6/03/2010

Quote: Originally Posted By tecwrg on 6/03/2010

You certainly can set a precedent by allowing it. But doing so opens the door to a lot of other considerations, many of which you might not be prepared to deal with.

Which is why you don't just make decisions such as this lightly, as a knee-jerk reaction to a specific incident.

Which is apparently what you want to do.

No tec. That's not what I want to do. I want baseball and Selig specifically to man up and admit an error occurred and fix it. Remember the pine tar game tec? Did the world end?
Baseball and Selig specifically HAVE manned up and admitted that an error occurred. The fix will be to review what they have in place and, presumably, take appropriate actions to try to avoid it from happening again in the future.

What part of this do you not understand?

That does not address the error that was made and correct it. And you have a precedent now too. You should be spitting happy. Much less invasive than reinstituting a home run and making them start from that point don't you think?



No, it doesn't. Nor should it. There is no mechanism currently in place to reverse an umpire's judgement call a day after the fact. Why do you refuse to acknowledge that?

And what is the precedent I now have that you are referring to?

And regarding the Pine-Tar incident, which you keep going back to . . . that was an upheld protest on a ruling. Which is quite different from an umpire's judgement call, which is non-protestable. Apples and oranges. Do you understand the difference between a judgement call and a ruling?

Jesus...what is your problem with the stupid questions at the end all the time? And actually a "ruling" is a conclusion based on an interpretation of the facts and generally requires the need to apply some judgement.

6/3/2010 10:32 PM
tecwrg
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The "stupid questions at the end" are because I can't quite figure out if you're unwilling to accept the facts of the argument, or if you just don't understand them. Because you seem to keep going back to the same flawed idea . . . that MLB should just come out and classify Galarraga's game as a perfect game, despite the actual outcome. Which will not and should not happen.

And I still don't think you understand the difference between an umpire's judgement call (which is neither reversible nor protestable) and an umpire's ruling (which can be protested and reversed). Because if you did, you wouldn't be continuing to push your point.

6/3/2010 11:16 PM
Arte
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Well I'll let you mull what I understand and don't understand for a while.

People will always remember this game as the perfect game that got taken away by a bad call. I don't think you can disagree with that. But note the preface...a perfect game. He did pitch a perfect game. He stepped on first with posession of the ball before the runner got there for the 27th consecutive out. That can not be denied and ever taken away from him. The subsequent error by the umpire is unfortunate but reversible if someone with the authority and the backbone chose to do so. But that will apparently not happen. And that is unfortunate.

Sports can teach important life lessons. The way Gallaraga and Joyce handled this are commendable examples of appropriate behavior. Too bad we can't add the lesson that when authority acknowledges an error, they not only work to ensure it doesn't happen again, they actually correct the error itself.
6/4/2010 12:27 AM
farleyfustle
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Quote: Originally Posted By edsortails on 6/03/2010would Galarraga be asked to give back a perfect game if out 27 was clearly called incorrectly
if they reversed it it would have slightly more legitimacy than a rookie with 20000 posts
6/4/2010 12:36 AM
cougarslayer
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For once, Bud Selig did show some backbone. He refused to cave to popular opinion and actual made the right decision by not overturning the call.
6/4/2010 1:44 AM
tecwrg
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Quote: Originally Posted By cougarslayer on 6/04/2010For once, Bud Selig did show some backbone. He refused to cave to popular opinion and actual made the right decision by not overturning the call.
Agreed.
6/4/2010 6:12 AM
MikeT23
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Quote: Originally Posted By Arte on 6/04/2010
Well I'll let you mull what I understand and don't understand for a while.

People will always remember this game as the perfect game that got taken away by a bad call. I don't think you can disagree with that. But note the preface...a perfect game. He did pitch a perfect game. He stepped on first with posession of the ball before the runner got there for the 27th consecutive out. That can not be denied and ever taken away from him. The subsequent error by the umpire is unfortunate but reversible if someone with the authority and the backbone chose to do so. But that will apparently not happen. And that is unfortunate.

Sports can teach important life lessons. The way Gallaraga and Joyce handled this are commendable examples of appropriate behavior. Too bad we can't add the lesson that when authority acknowledges an error, they not only work to ensure it doesn't happen again, they actually correct the error itself.



I beg to differ. The scorebook says he gave up a hit.
6/4/2010 7:11 AM
kermit
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Quote: Originally Posted By tecwrg on 6/04/2010
Quote: Originally Posted By cougarslayer on 6/04/2010
For once, Bud Selig did show some backbone. He refused to cave to popular opinion and actual made the right decision by not overturning the call.
Agreed
Yeah, when Bud declared the All Star game a tie, he was just following the tide of popular opinion. Dude never does anything that people disagree with.
6/4/2010 7:30 AM
tecwrg
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Popular opinion wanted the All-Star game to end in a tie? That's not the way I remember it. I recall that the fans were pretty upset about Bud's decision to end the game.
6/4/2010 7:41 AM
Arte
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Um, tec... kermit was being sarcastic...
6/4/2010 8:10 AM
Arte
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Quote: Originally Posted By MikeT23 on 6/04/2010
Quote: Originally Posted By Arte on 6/04/2010

Well I'll let you mull what I understand and don't understand for a while.

People will always remember this game as the perfect game that got taken away by a bad call. I don't think you can disagree with that. But note the preface...a perfect game. He did pitch a perfect game. He stepped on first with posession of the ball before the runner got there for the 27th consecutive out. That can not be denied and ever taken away from him. The subsequent error by the umpire is unfortunate but reversible if someone with the authority and the backbone chose to do so. But that will apparently not happen. And that is unfortunate.

Sports can teach important life lessons. The way Gallaraga and Joyce handled this are commendable examples of appropriate behavior. Too bad we can't add the lesson that when authority acknowledges an error, they not only work to ensure it doesn't happen again, they actually correct the error itself.




I beg to differ. The scorebook says he gave up a hit.
To be clearer, it was a perfect game for about a second until Joyce shocked the world and called him safe...
6/4/2010 8:16 AM
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