Posted by gillispie1 on 6/1/2016 3:43:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 6/1/2016 2:37:00 PM (view original):
Beta isn't a trial for where we all get to have a say, and then have a democratic vote on if we like it or not. Benis is likely right in that the most we are going to see changed post-beta will be de-bugging and minor fixes. I wouldn't expect an overhaul or abort, unless there was something big that made the system unplayable. And that doesn't look like it's going to be the case. Its for working out kinks, and to give players a chance to experiment and fail and work out the process that works for them in a no-stakes setting.

Some players are never going to be able to accept it, because someone is moving their cheese, and they don't have any control over it. I think that's where the meltdown came from, and I doubt he'll be the only one. But I also doubt that there will be a significant number. And anyway, creative destruction.

this is dangerous thinking... there are concrete tradeoffs in all of the major releases so far, and to think not many will object and leave, is to ignore history. this has been demonstrated consistently, potential knocked off a lot of coaches, and the sim engine rewrite knocked off a lot more. we are going to lose a bunch of coaches from this update, too - its almost guaranteed, got to be at least 90%, the magnitude of change is too big, with too many tradeoffs. even if seble makes all the adjustments i'd like to see (not sure what those are - i'll have to see more), i am sure plenty of long timers will not be up for it and leave. the only hope is that seble will end up with something compelling enough, that with a marketing push, new coaches are brought in. the question is, does this update bring that level of improvement to the game? not if some coaches will get ****** and go home. that question was answered when seble decided to overhaul the most revered part of the game.

now, i'm not of the camp that says, because of the above, seble shouldn't touch it. granted, i 100% believe he should have made adjustments to pacify the existing base, maybe bring some long timers back, some core stuff like adjusting job logic, recruit gen, and eliminating hard caps. then, if he did it well, he'd have built up some political capital to try this update. that would have been the smart route. but, we went this route, and there will be consequences. i just hope he does manage to create a game that is more appealing to today's audience, and WIS makes an actual push to bring in new users. otherwise, its curtains. the reason i don't say that means seble shouldn't touch it - is because that is where the game is headed anyway. you have to give it the old college try. i just wish he tried to set himself up for a soft landing first.

I operate under the assumption that no player knows what HD's operating margins are, certainly not to the degree that seble and his bosses do. And they're the ones who will live or die by it; so their self-interest matters a lot more than mine or yours. Ultimately, the better and more widely appealing the game, the healthier the long term prospects. I think these changes will end up being more appealing. But I also understand that it will be an adjustment for players who had mastered the game as it existed. I agree there will be some attrition - of course the question is how much, and relative to what. The game, as it exists, doesn't attract all that many players. Changing job logic to allow people to get into aspirational jobs faster will help some players stick, but the flip side is that getting fired from those jobs if you can't turn it around fast enough will cause other (paying) players to leave. The auction style recruiting is really only popular among the people who have mastered it, and people who particularly enjoy trying to figure out exactly what all their opponents will be able to spend. There's no meaningful change that could have been implemented efficiently without a big overhaul. As someone who has dabbled in programming and game development as a hobby, I completely understand seble's dilemma there.

From an earlier post: “So you're also going to conveniently ignore that fact that motivation, and who's "right," are totally irrelevant here?”

Not at all. You have to be thinking first before you can be “right.” Until that happens, people who are blindly arguing out of mere bile aren’t right or wrong, they’re just loud. And annoying. And since you mention it, irrelevant.

I just read the first line and I can tell you that based on how many programmers they most likely use on a regular basis, they are making tons in HD. That is why they were willing to do this overhaul/modification.

Gillispie, just re-read, and to clarify, are you arguing that you think 90% of coaches are going to leave? As in, 9 out of 10 human controlled teams are going to go to sim? And if so, what kind of odds are you giving on that?

I had to re-read that line myself to figure out what he was indicating - I'm pretty sure he's saying he's 90% sure that there will be a large exodus.

Posted by viva_il_re on 6/1/2016 3:57:00 PM (view original):

Posted by kcsundevil on 6/1/2016 3:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by viva_il_re on 6/1/2016 3:50:00 PM (view original):

Posted by kcsundevil on 6/1/2016 3:41:00 PM (view original):

Posted by viva_il_re on 6/1/2016 3:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by beachhouse on 6/1/2016 3:16:00 PM (view original):
Have you tried it on your smartphone yet?

it is much more user friendly in this regard.

Yes I did check on my smartphone and what congrats for joining this decade? It took that long to make a mobile friendly interface?

If you hate the product so much, nobody is forcing you to use it.

WIS has no obligation to keep HD open at all, so your broad anger at their efforts to make any improvements at all has no logical endgame.

maybe if your dumbass could read you could maybe read the posts saying I'm quitting once its rolled out

You'll be missed.

and you were never even noticed

Stop talking about quitting. Give constructive feedback that can help the game like tarvolon is doing. Or, if you think the game is so bad no feedback will help it, please leave now.

Posted by dahsdebater on 5/31/2016 10:10:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bk41129 on 5/31/2016 10:04:00 PM (view original):
I actually like the new scouting system. There could be some changes that would benefit it, but for the most part I like it. The new scouting is fresh and is a lot of fun in my opinion. It takes some work to find some talent. You don't just pay a service and know everything about every player in the state. You actually have to send your scout places, attend camps, and host camps to discover talent.

You forgot "get lucky enough to have your camps and your scouts find the right guy."

You can find every recruit available in your division very cheaply with FSS. Then you can concentrate (in Div 2 and 3) within 500 miles.

WRT getting lucky enough to find the right guys with your Scouting and camps.. Isn't that how it normally works in Basketball recruiting, especially at non Div-1 schools?

I really like all the concepts. Scouting to find players. Free attention points, free scholarship offers. Scouting and recruiting monies separated. I think is is significantly more realistic.

Posted by viva_il_re on 6/1/2016 9:03:00 PM (view original):
But then I would miss out on you getting disappointed when your see nothing change from what's bring suggested and if by some miracle he does, I ask the question, great where was that version of seble the past 4 years maybe yoy wouldn't have created a group of users so strongly against yoy had yoy not abandoned them
I still have things to do here in the meantime I'm still allowed to play until the beta comes out ;) (I mean someone has to do the winnig since yoy arent)

If you don't like it, then quit. Pretty easy concept. Nobody wants anyone to stay who doesn't like it.

Posted by hughesjr on 6/1/2016 10:13:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 5/31/2016 10:10:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bk41129 on 5/31/2016 10:04:00 PM (view original):
I actually like the new scouting system. There could be some changes that would benefit it, but for the most part I like it. The new scouting is fresh and is a lot of fun in my opinion. It takes some work to find some talent. You don't just pay a service and know everything about every player in the state. You actually have to send your scout places, attend camps, and host camps to discover talent.

You forgot "get lucky enough to have your camps and your scouts find the right guy."

You can find every recruit available in your division very cheaply with FSS. Then you can concentrate (in Div 2 and 3) within 500 miles.

WRT getting lucky enough to find the right guys with your Scouting and camps.. Isn't that how it normally works in Basketball recruiting, especially at non Div-1 schools?

I really like all the concepts. Scouting to find players. Free attention points, free scholarship offers. Scouting and recruiting monies separated. I think is is significantly more realistic.

And more strategic, and more fun.

Posted by dahsdebater on 5/31/2016 10:38:00 PM (view original):

Posted by nachopuzzle on 5/31/2016 10:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 5/31/2016 4:48:00 PM (view original):
We're only a few days in, but the beta has already confirmed my suspicions that if and when the changes are enacted, I will be retiring from HD. I'm already down to 1 world. I don't have the regular free time that it seems is going to be necessary to actually be successful under the new scouting system. It also looks like luck is going to be a massively enhanced factor. What I like about D2 and D3 is that they're less luck-oriented than D1 (from a recruiting standpoint in particular). From early returns, it looks to me like luck factors more heavily into the lower divisions in the beta than in D1 under the current system. Maybe you'll find some good recruits, but I don't see an obvious path to a reasonably high probability of finding enough to fill 3-4 open spots in a region with competing schools. Maybe as we get deeper in and understand the processes better it will reveal itself, but it's not obvious now.

From my perspective, this is a bad change for a game that's already pushing the limits of how small the user base can be while remaining entertaining to play. And that's not about the luck factor. It's about the time input to maximize your odds of finding those good recruits. It's more work. I will say this - effort should correlate much more strongly with success. Under the current system, a guy who spends 12-15 hours per week micromanaging every aspect of 1-2 teams will develop an edge over a guy who spends 2 hours a week setting a few gameplanning settings and maybe 5-10 total hours on recruiting. But it's not a huge edge. With a little luck, the low-effort guy will still make deep tournament runs, and will certainly beat the high-effort guy head to head a reasonable proportion of the time. I think that gap is about to grow. If you're the high-effort guy, you're going to be excited about that. It's nice to have your efforts rewarded. I used to be that guy, I get it. But probably 75-80% of the user base fits more closely into the low-effort set. If enough of those guys get frustrated and quit then the population crash is easily going to outweigh the effort advantage, even for the high-effort users.

I agree with the vast majority of this post, and think it largely reflects my sentiments, but there are a few differences so I'd like to hash them out...if not directly show they unwittingly highlight my position. Firstly, I think your statements, especially the later portion of the second one, are a complete non-sequitur, in my humble opinion. You say in the first paragraph that "luck is going to be a massively enhanced factor" yet in the second you claim "if you're a high effort guy you're going to be excited about this", sooooo, which one is it??? And HONESTLY, I'm not trying to be a dick at all whatsoever, but if we could square those statements then we might actually find the answer to both the need to keep the game as it is and welcome in a whole new community and/or conform with the new WIS business model...no????

With the higher levels of scouting, effort will help. Based on what I'm seeing here and in the test world forums, some guys seem to be blindly bumping recruits that initially seem potentially interesting up to level 4 pretty much without further thought. That's obviously a mistake and a waste of money. As has been pointed out in a few places, intelligent use of deductive reasoning can tell you at level 2 when a guy is likely not worth pursuing further, even if it's not blatantly obvious. But remembering what you saw at each level, tracking, deciding who to further scout, is going to take time and effort and something that looks like paperwork. Some coaches like that, and many don't.

Luck is tangential to that. There are 2 aspects here: you need to get lucky enough to find the right guys, and you need to put in time to ensure that you follow up with the right ones and optimally use your resources. But at D2 and D3 in particular, I do think luck wins out to a great extent. The number of guys you'll be able to afford to get to level 3/4 is going to be extremely limited. The number you'll be able to even test out to level 2 is not huge. Your sample sizes are tiny. Even there, your odds certainly improve with effort. But the luck factor is looking huge to me.

Perhaps a better short answer to your question would be this: in the current engine, we can fairly quickly and easily sift through, typically, several hundred potentially viable recruits. Under the new engine, it takes a greater amount of effort and data tracking to sift through several dozen potentially viable recruits. I can see where it seems like an oxymoron, but I think the impact of both luck and effort is enhanced, with luck being a bigger roadblock in the lower divisions and effort likely a bigger roadblock in D1. But I haven't really tested out what a D1 scouting budget looks like in a practical sense.

I see what you're getting at in that first paragraph because I found myself doing the exact same thing, but I soon found out that the new system even makes this almost pointless to a certain extent since the grades (especially the general A grade) is so expansive that it verges on the notion of meaningless.

As for your last two sections, I largely agree. And, in my humble opinion, its incredibly short-sighted to further emphasize the role of luck in a game were luck plays such a large role in its engine already. So now, while having the very limited control over in-game decisions, you'll also have a similar level of control over what decisions are available to you during recruiting. If this is going to be the case, then it calls for nothing less than a complete overhaul of recruit generation as well because with the decreased number of recruits the portion of quality ones must also increase - or else we're gonna see a ton of zone teams with 8 or 9 scholarship players.

Posted by shoe3 on 6/1/2016 11:10:00 PM (view original):

Posted by hughesjr on 6/1/2016 10:13:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 5/31/2016 10:10:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bk41129 on 5/31/2016 10:04:00 PM (view original):
I actually like the new scouting system. There could be some changes that would benefit it, but for the most part I like it. The new scouting is fresh and is a lot of fun in my opinion. It takes some work to find some talent. You don't just pay a service and know everything about every player in the state. You actually have to send your scout places, attend camps, and host camps to discover talent.

You forgot "get lucky enough to have your camps and your scouts find the right guy."

You can find every recruit available in your division very cheaply with FSS. Then you can concentrate (in Div 2 and 3) within 500 miles.

WRT getting lucky enough to find the right guys with your Scouting and camps.. Isn't that how it normally works in Basketball recruiting, especially at non Div-1 schools?

I really like all the concepts. Scouting to find players. Free attention points, free scholarship offers. Scouting and recruiting monies separated. I think is is significantly more realistic.

And more strategic, and more fun.

So, how exactly is more strategy involved? You begin with zero information, start making decisions based on the simplest and vaguest of information, and then repeat that exact same process (in one form or another) over and over and over and over and over again. I think you've seriously inverted the the notions of strategy and tactics...except in the new process even tactics are kinda pointless to a degree because the general letter grades are nonsense.

I get that what people consider more fun, and even strategy, are extremely relative concepts, and I accepted that fact a long time ago. But while you'll have to make more choices in the new system in actuality you will have less choices. Now, your ability to put the best possible team (given your situation, style, and recruiting circumstances) on the court is even undermined.

Posted by CoachSpud on 6/1/2016 4:38:00 PM (view original):
From an earlier post: “So you're also going to conveniently ignore that fact that motivation, and who's "right," are totally irrelevant here?”

Not at all. You have to be thinking first before you can be “right.” Until that happens, people who are blindly arguing out of mere bile aren’t right or wrong, they’re just loud. And annoying. And since you mention it, irrelevant.

It's hard to say that his opinions aren't well formed for the most part, up till 30 or so hours ago I agreed with almost everything he said.