Posted by taniajane on 6/2/2016 5:15:00 PM (view original):
Sheesh I pay for "Some players are simply going to be out of your view. A non-top-100 player who doesn't attend any camps is going to be visible only to a player who uses the assistant and gets lucky." Sounds like a Carnival Barker...there was Enough luck in the game as existed,,,

Of course, at D1 you can FSS any state (except PR, apparently) and then based on that level 1 info, go ahead and scout individually for those who interest you. I don't expect that to be a popular option, but it is there.

As you say, there is already a heavy dose of luck - mostly in recruit generation. This system just introduces a little hope with that luck; hope that the gem you find is a good preference match, and is not uncovered by better matches. As I've said before, we really need to wait until the end of recruiting to make a decent value judgment on gameplay, and even then the second year is going to give a better prognosis than this first.

Posted by therewas47 on 6/2/2016 7:20:00 AM (view original):
The worst argument for anything in HD is the "in real life..." argument. If I wanted to be a college coach I'd strap on a pair of 80s short shorts and tube socks. Mimicking Kenny Powers I'd grow out trashy facial hair and a mullet. Then I'd head out to the nearest school and request a job. Then I'd get told that I didn't have the experience, expertise, or appropriate attire for the position. Even if the administration decided to give me the time of day they'd start a background check on me and I'd have to explain that im not that therewas47 but after reviewing that case that group of nuns definitely provoked that incident. What if they did hire me? It certainly wouldn't be for head coach. Here I am d3 assistant coach by day. Oh nice look at that fancy can almost pay my bills money. Don't worry though, now I'm working a second job on nights and weekends. Yeah I got the position title jiffy luber confused with the national automotive service chain Jiffy Lube. I'm not too proud though, so, I keep the job and live a life of silent shame. So I'm starting to rock out as a d3 coach and then I figure out there's no d3 athletic scholarships. Well in real life what do I do? Of course, I blackmail one of my best clients from my second job into sending their d1 athlete son to my school. The following season comes to an end and this kid is averaging 20 and 10 and we have gone from mediocre to top 10 in the country. I talk to my agent because, you know, all d3 assistants have one and ask him about jobs. I ask how about Texas? He doesn't reply with maybe you should win more or maybe you should get more experience. No, he quietly excuses himself. Convinced I've lost my marbles, he calls the cops. They look me up and get me confused with that other therewas47. Now here I am serving a 5 year sentence at the local looney bin. I'm only allowed uncafffeniated soda, never enter into a room illuminated by natural light, and am provided with 15 minutes of Internet service a week. Deeply distraught, I look for a release from my life of constant woo. There it is hoops dynasty. What a game. It sounds like a blast. Then I click on the forums and notice that every discussion is jaded by the in real life argument. "IN REAL LIFE," I scream. A flood of memories from wrongful convictions to jiffy lubing rush through my mind. Attendants rush in....a heavy sedative is added to my medication schedule...it's day 226. Still over 1500 days to go. My best friend is one of the few possessions I'm allowed, a toothbrush. I name the toothbrush Jake. I start to grind the handle of my best friend into a shank. Today is the day I bust my way out of this joint. Me and you, Jake. Me and you.

Meh, there's give and take. The game has to be somewhat tied to real life, or else it isn't fun anymore. If WIS decides that perimeter shots are worth four points, people think the game is goofy and stop playing. The basics of how basketball works (scoring system, rules, etc) must be true to real life. Having four years of eligibility, also true to real life. Having a season take a calendar year, on the other hand, is something that we don't want to translate to the game.

I think something being realistic is a mark in its favor. But it isn't sufficient for adding it to the game. You have to further ask whether it helps make/keep the game fun, and how doable it is from a programming perspective.

Not having immediate access to the exact skill set of every recruit in the country is without a doubt realistic. As I see it, that is a (defeasible) mark in its favor. It is certainly doable from a programming perspective. So the remaining question is whether it makes the game fun. And this is where there has been some dispute. I think that it has the potential to add strategy to scouting (where to focus your discovery efforts, when to go for more info, how to balance trying to get to level 4 vs trying to get level 3 on more recruits), so I am cautiously optimistic about the general concept of the update. On the execution? Well, we'll have to see. Not having gone through even one recruiting season, I don't know yet.

Posted by tarvolon on 6/2/2016 7:48:00 PM (view original):

Posted by therewas47 on 6/2/2016 7:20:00 AM (view original):
The worst argument for anything in HD is the "in real life..." argument. If I wanted to be a college coach I'd strap on a pair of 80s short shorts and tube socks. Mimicking Kenny Powers I'd grow out trashy facial hair and a mullet. Then I'd head out to the nearest school and request a job. Then I'd get told that I didn't have the experience, expertise, or appropriate attire for the position. Even if the administration decided to give me the time of day they'd start a background check on me and I'd have to explain that im not that therewas47 but after reviewing that case that group of nuns definitely provoked that incident. What if they did hire me? It certainly wouldn't be for head coach. Here I am d3 assistant coach by day. Oh nice look at that fancy can almost pay my bills money. Don't worry though, now I'm working a second job on nights and weekends. Yeah I got the position title jiffy luber confused with the national automotive service chain Jiffy Lube. I'm not too proud though, so, I keep the job and live a life of silent shame. So I'm starting to rock out as a d3 coach and then I figure out there's no d3 athletic scholarships. Well in real life what do I do? Of course, I blackmail one of my best clients from my second job into sending their d1 athlete son to my school. The following season comes to an end and this kid is averaging 20 and 10 and we have gone from mediocre to top 10 in the country. I talk to my agent because, you know, all d3 assistants have one and ask him about jobs. I ask how about Texas? He doesn't reply with maybe you should win more or maybe you should get more experience. No, he quietly excuses himself. Convinced I've lost my marbles, he calls the cops. They look me up and get me confused with that other therewas47. Now here I am serving a 5 year sentence at the local looney bin. I'm only allowed uncafffeniated soda, never enter into a room illuminated by natural light, and am provided with 15 minutes of Internet service a week. Deeply distraught, I look for a release from my life of constant woo. There it is hoops dynasty. What a game. It sounds like a blast. Then I click on the forums and notice that every discussion is jaded by the in real life argument. "IN REAL LIFE," I scream. A flood of memories from wrongful convictions to jiffy lubing rush through my mind. Attendants rush in....a heavy sedative is added to my medication schedule...it's day 226. Still over 1500 days to go. My best friend is one of the few possessions I'm allowed, a toothbrush. I name the toothbrush Jake. I start to grind the handle of my best friend into a shank. Today is the day I bust my way out of this joint. Me and you, Jake. Me and you.

Meh, there's give and take. The game has to be somewhat tied to real life, or else it isn't fun anymore. If WIS decides that perimeter shots are worth four points, people think the game is goofy and stop playing. The basics of how basketball works (scoring system, rules, etc) must be true to real life. Having four years of eligibility, also true to real life. Having a season take a calendar year, on the other hand, is something that we don't want to translate to the game.

I think something being realistic is a mark in its favor. But it isn't sufficient for adding it to the game. You have to further ask whether it helps make/keep the game fun, and how doable it is from a programming perspective.

Not having immediate access to the exact skill set of every recruit in the country is without a doubt realistic. As I see it, that is a (defeasible) mark in its favor. It is certainly doable from a programming perspective. So the remaining question is whether it makes the game fun. And this is where there has been some dispute. I think that it has the potential to add strategy to scouting (where to focus your discovery efforts, when to go for more info, how to balance trying to get to level 4 vs trying to get level 3 on more recruits), so I am cautiously optimistic about the general concept of the update. On the execution? Well, we'll have to see. Not having gone through even one recruiting season, I don't know yet.

Exactly! +1000

Perfectly stated tarvolon.

Posted by tarvolon on 6/2/2016 7:48:00 PM (view original):

Posted by therewas47 on 6/2/2016 7:20:00 AM (view original):
The worst argument for anything in HD is the "in real life..." argument. If I wanted to be a college coach I'd strap on a pair of 80s short shorts and tube socks. Mimicking Kenny Powers I'd grow out trashy facial hair and a mullet. Then I'd head out to the nearest school and request a job. Then I'd get told that I didn't have the experience, expertise, or appropriate attire for the position. Even if the administration decided to give me the time of day they'd start a background check on me and I'd have to explain that im not that therewas47 but after reviewing that case that group of nuns definitely provoked that incident. What if they did hire me? It certainly wouldn't be for head coach. Here I am d3 assistant coach by day. Oh nice look at that fancy can almost pay my bills money. Don't worry though, now I'm working a second job on nights and weekends. Yeah I got the position title jiffy luber confused with the national automotive service chain Jiffy Lube. I'm not too proud though, so, I keep the job and live a life of silent shame. So I'm starting to rock out as a d3 coach and then I figure out there's no d3 athletic scholarships. Well in real life what do I do? Of course, I blackmail one of my best clients from my second job into sending their d1 athlete son to my school. The following season comes to an end and this kid is averaging 20 and 10 and we have gone from mediocre to top 10 in the country. I talk to my agent because, you know, all d3 assistants have one and ask him about jobs. I ask how about Texas? He doesn't reply with maybe you should win more or maybe you should get more experience. No, he quietly excuses himself. Convinced I've lost my marbles, he calls the cops. They look me up and get me confused with that other therewas47. Now here I am serving a 5 year sentence at the local looney bin. I'm only allowed uncafffeniated soda, never enter into a room illuminated by natural light, and am provided with 15 minutes of Internet service a week. Deeply distraught, I look for a release from my life of constant woo. There it is hoops dynasty. What a game. It sounds like a blast. Then I click on the forums and notice that every discussion is jaded by the in real life argument. "IN REAL LIFE," I scream. A flood of memories from wrongful convictions to jiffy lubing rush through my mind. Attendants rush in....a heavy sedative is added to my medication schedule...it's day 226. Still over 1500 days to go. My best friend is one of the few possessions I'm allowed, a toothbrush. I name the toothbrush Jake. I start to grind the handle of my best friend into a shank. Today is the day I bust my way out of this joint. Me and you, Jake. Me and you.

Meh, there's give and take. The game has to be somewhat tied to real life, or else it isn't fun anymore. If WIS decides that perimeter shots are worth four points, people think the game is goofy and stop playing. The basics of how basketball works (scoring system, rules, etc) must be true to real life. Having four years of eligibility, also true to real life. Having a season take a calendar year, on the other hand, is something that we don't want to translate to the game.

I think something being realistic is a mark in its favor. But it isn't sufficient for adding it to the game. You have to further ask whether it helps make/keep the game fun, and how doable it is from a programming perspective.

Not having immediate access to the exact skill set of every recruit in the country is without a doubt realistic. As I see it, that is a (defeasible) mark in its favor. It is certainly doable from a programming perspective. So the remaining question is whether it makes the game fun. And this is where there has been some dispute. I think that it has the potential to add strategy to scouting (where to focus your discovery efforts, when to go for more info, how to balance trying to get to level 4 vs trying to get level 3 on more recruits), so I am cautiously optimistic about the general concept of the update. On the execution? Well, we'll have to see. Not having gone through even one recruiting season, I don't know yet.

1. My post was not about the update. I was showcasing how realism is a terrible argument. With most arguments on the forums, there are lots of good arguments to be made. Realism is not one of them. It is a lazy argument that is only invoked when the one making the argument can't develop a decent argument.
2. I had a girlfriend a few years back who would text/call me constantly and just generally was overwhelming. I liked her a good deal and decided to talk to her about it. Her response when I pointed it out was to get defensive and say, "would you prefer if I didnt care at all about you." Obviously her argument was poor. No one with any sense would argue that relationships should not have any caring. Your first paragraph reads the same way. No one is going to argue those points. I mean a basketball sim is based on the basics of basketball. That's an obvious thing and if I ever argue with anyone that the general tenants of basketball should not be a part of the game please...please...get me help. That paragraph is completely worthless to establishing credibility for a counter-argument here.
3. I am not saying that it is not an argument. My first line:"the worst argument for anything in HD is the 'in real life...' argument." I did not state that is not an argument. Just because something can be argued does not make it a good argument. For points that are arguable, I cannot think of one where the 'in real life...' argument is a good argument to make. The closest I can think of is when it comes to result variability. A lot of times that when people complain about the RNG people respond with the 'in real life...' argument. Yet, even there, it's a pretty crummy argument. The better argument is that because it would make the game crappy to not have a degree of randomness in results. If you could be pretty positive about most results pre-simulation this game would be terribly boring. Yes, that may mimic real life and that's a major reason why sports are fun to watch, but just the fact that it exists in real life is not a good reason to defend or oppose the result.
4. Your middle paragraph pretty much admits my premise. Arguments are about if it is good for the game or not. Realism should not be a defining reason to make decisions on the game. The fact that something exists in real life means very little with regards to debating topics within this game. As such it is a terrible/lazy argument for or against anything in HD and people should move away from using that argument.

We agree that realism should not be the be all, end all. What you seemed to be arguing is that it shouldn't be given any weight. My argument was meant to rebut that. But I think we might be on the same page (or at least close), but just getting hung up on our terms. At any rate, my view is that real life should be given some weight but less weight than what makes for fun gameplay. So I don't think it's totally irrelevant as an argument, but we should keep in mind that it starts the conversation, not ends it

Posted by tarvolon on 6/2/2016 11:29:00 PM (view original):
We agree that realism should not be the be all, end all. What you seemed to be arguing is that it shouldn't be given any weight. My argument was meant to rebut that. But I think we might be on the same page (or at least close), but just getting hung up on our terms. At any rate, my view is that real life should be given some weight but less weight than what makes for fun gameplay. So I don't think it's totally irrelevant as an argument, but we should keep in mind that it starts the conversation, not ends it

pretty close to in agreement then. I differ on your last sentence because I think it is irrelevant because the factors that make real life matter manifest themselves in other more important qualities.

Posted by viva_il_re on 6/2/2016 11:32:00 PM (view original):
Sitting here like

Which one, sitting around like a creepy mofo, or eating popcorn???

Posted by zorzii on 6/1/2016 8:45:00 AM (view original):
I don't think they are shutting down anything. You do not change the layout, propose updates when you plan on shutting it down. I think they are really trying to make it better. Scouting trips needs to be much more simpler. I'd give more money to DIII and DII, to make sure they can scout what they need to scout. In D1, scouting won't be a problem, we get plenty of money, I already penciled down my targets at ASU... I could not attend Las Vegas camp and still be happy with what I can get. The problem I foresee is : if for some reason people have the same targets, I probably have 10 to 15 now for 2 spots, can I keep scouting once recruiting has started. I bet I can. But not sure.

People need to stop being negative and start pointing out flaws and use constructive criticism. I am positive the problems will be worked out during BETA.

Then Zorzii it is painfully obvious that you weren't here when the update regarding potential was rolled out. One of the reasons that a lot of the older users are not thrilled with the update is that the WIS track record in regards to updates can only be called abysmal at best. The reason so many coaches left during the potential roll out was exactly what you claim won't happen: the thing was rolled out with SO MANY FLAWS that it was an affront to many paying customers. I stuck it out through that one but I refuse to pay to be a damn beta tester again while they try to fix the flaws that should have been fixed waaaaaay before that debacle saw anything close to the light of day. Whoever gave the green light for that thing the go officially should be brought up on some kind of charges, least of which should be Guilty of Being Dicks to Your Customer Base and Having Them Pay to Do YOUR Work. In fact, in my decade or so playing the game about the only thing that has been done right was the Projection Report (can't comment on the Draft Board thing, haven't been in D1 since that became a reality). I won't name him specifically because I was banned once for doing that, but there are developers and/or staff and/or CS working for this site that make you wonder how they actually keep a job.

I have a couple of teams under this ID that I'll keep temporarily until I see how good/bad this thing is but most of my other teams under this and my other ID that are don't really "care about" will be let go, most likely never to be picked back up. Between ID's I'm currently at 16 teams, with this update I see myself at like 5, maybe 6 and that at the very most.

The fact is that what this game needed most was to be advertised to the masses. To me, it sure feels like we're getting a temporary band-aid to take the attention away from the pressing issues instead of using the time and the money where it was needed the most. I don't know who ultimately makes the call the further you get up the food chain but it would seem to this humble peasant that they don't have any kind of clue what they have here. This game is pretty damn unique and could be bringing in a **** ton of cash if it was operated and ran the right way. Instead, it looks like it will slowly continue its death by attrition until it gets to the point where the rewards going out top the season purchases coming in and then it's game over boys. I mean, come on man, we've all seen neighborhood lemonade stands that were better and more efficiently than this and don't even get me started on customer "service". I sent in a ticket once marked URGENT as it was about a recruiting matter during recruiting and finally just gave up and closed it when I still hadn't had a response back after SEVENTEEN DAYS! Not hours mind you, days. Given that it was in a 2x day world, we were damn near to the conference tournaments and I hadn't had an issue about recruiting answered yet. Pitiful. And yet, here I am, stuck, because there's no other game like this on the internet. At least none that I've heard of anyway. That's what this site needs, some competition. I bet they'd get their **** together and at least start listening to their user base then. Until that happens though, they know that if we want to keep playing anything like this game that we have to just bend over and take it because there's nowhere else to go. Don't think that very phrase hasn't been spoken among the staff either. They've got us over a barrel and they know it, that's why they don't care.

But I'm sure, nay, positive all the problems will be worked out during the beta. I've also got some beachfront property in Kansas for sale. Interested?

**Edit** it would seem that Dahs and Gill kind of already said the same thing before I read far enough ahead. So, umm, there!?

Posted by therewas47 on 6/2/2016 5:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by nachopuzzle on 6/2/2016 1:08:00 PM (view original):
therewas: That was like staring into the sun, only once you truly commit does it then become glorious.

A bow at the waste and a tip of the cap, good sir.

Thank you

I will also bow at the "waste" or "waist" if you prefer (or maybe it was a "waste" of time/space? Maybe? Who knows?). Whichever kind of waste/waist it was, it was awesome and definitely worth a bow. Brought back a lot of bad memories though. How'd you know I had a toothbrush shank named Jake anyway?

Posted by pkoopman on 6/2/2016 5:05:00 PM (view original):
"So, and I'm asking this honestly, you think a system which adds increasingly fractional decisions based on the vaguest possible information - and by your own words introduces "layers, luck, and ambiguity to the process" - actually directly increases, not reduces, the strategic functionality of the game. Is that what your suggesting, because I want to be clear on this???"

Your question, as framed, is incoherent to me. If you're asking if I think more ambiguity increases strategy, the answer is an unequivocal "yes".

First off, I disagree with your premise. I don't think the new system involves "increasingly fractional decisions". You're looking at it through a different kind of lens than the one I'm using. Every sports simulation I've ever played, going back to Baseball Mogul in the 90s, has had essentially the same debate - should the players have visualized ratings, and how absolute or vague should they be? HD has fallen very heavily on the concrete and unambiguous side. This update can be seen as a slight - though noticeable - shift toward more ambiguity; not even so much regarding the ratings, which are still absolute and discoverable (with a little extra effort), but regarding the existence of those players. Some players are simply going to be out of your view. A non-top-100 player who doesn't attend any camps is going to be visible only to a player who uses the assistant and gets lucky. So the old formula of "find players with the best ratings, then game your budget to save up enough money to go get them" is no longer a viable way to dominate. You have to be more creative to put together a good class year after year. It will be harder (presumably) for players to master the process to the point where they can dominate year after year. Conference power should become more fluid. A lot of opportunity is going to be created for a lot of players who have felt as though the game lends itself to a dominant class that's unreasonably hard to break into.

As for the other stuff, it's just not worth wasting words or emotional energy on. Going on about the past and what did or didn't or should have happened doesn't do anything. If it bothers you that much, spend your money somewhere else. I encourage people to put the effort into the beta (or learning about it, if you're not participating) and assume that this is the game that's going to exist, once the beta has run its course. If you can handle a little ambiguity in the process of trying to get the best players for your system, it's going to be a fun game.

ETA - shoe3 = pkoopman

I ask this in all sincerity Shoe. You state that you believe it will be harder for players to master the process to the point where they can dominate year after year. First, the game "is" named Hoops Dynasty, yes? Second, wouldn't that (presumably) make it even "harder" for the new coaches that this update is bound to attract (please note the sarcasm) to learn the system and be able to put together competitive teams? Or is there going to be so much luck involved that a new coach can simply fall into a top 10 type team by being lucky enough in his scouting? I'm not against new coaches succeeding by any means, we all started brand new at one point. What I'm concerned about is just how much of a factor luck is going to play in the game from this point forward. Recruiting is already the most important part of the game, by a good margin. If we take the most important part and make it where luck is a fairly significant factor in the game, where does that leave us but playing basketball's version of "Pin the Tail on the Donkey"?

For transparencies sake: Dcy0827 = Emy1013

Posted by nachopuzzle on 5/31/2016 10:46:00 PM (view original):
I think its a pretty big ***** move to request a ban...then fallback on some bullshit account so your voice can still be heard.

Here's what they teach during day #1 at martyrdom school...you don't come back to life until god seble says so.

I would say "pretty big" is kind of an understatement. Ginormous, as the kids like to say today, is probably more accurate. Either way, whatever word you want to use to describe it, it's pretty damn weak.

If the young lad could spell better, I'd swear it was Etta in disguise.

Posted by gillispie1 on 6/1/2016 3:43:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 6/1/2016 2:37:00 PM (view original):
Beta isn't a trial for where we all get to have a say, and then have a democratic vote on if we like it or not. Benis is likely right in that the most we are going to see changed post-beta will be de-bugging and minor fixes. I wouldn't expect an overhaul or abort, unless there was something big that made the system unplayable. And that doesn't look like it's going to be the case. Its for working out kinks, and to give players a chance to experiment and fail and work out the process that works for them in a no-stakes setting.

Some players are never going to be able to accept it, because someone is moving their cheese, and they don't have any control over it. I think that's where the meltdown came from, and I doubt he'll be the only one. But I also doubt that there will be a significant number. And anyway, creative destruction.

this is dangerous thinking... there are concrete tradeoffs in all of the major releases so far, and to think not many will object and leave, is to ignore history. this has been demonstrated consistently, potential knocked off a lot of coaches, and the sim engine rewrite knocked off a lot more. we are going to lose a bunch of coaches from this update, too - its almost guaranteed, got to be at least 90%, the magnitude of change is too big, with too many tradeoffs. even if seble makes all the adjustments i'd like to see (not sure what those are - i'll have to see more), i am sure plenty of long timers will not be up for it and leave. the only hope is that seble will end up with something compelling enough, that with a marketing push, new coaches are brought in. the question is, does this update bring that level of improvement to the game? not if some coaches will get ****** and go home. that question was answered when seble decided to overhaul the most revered part of the game.

now, i'm not of the camp that says, because of the above, seble shouldn't touch it. granted, i 100% believe he should have made adjustments to pacify the existing base, maybe bring some long timers back, some core stuff like adjusting job logic, recruit gen, and eliminating hard caps. then, if he did it well, he'd have built up some political capital to try this update. that would have been the smart route. but, we went this route, and there will be consequences. i just hope he does manage to create a game that is more appealing to today's audience, and WIS makes an actual push to bring in new users. otherwise, its curtains. the reason i don't say that means seble shouldn't touch it - is because that is where the game is headed anyway. you have to give it the old college try. i just wish he tried to set himself up for a soft landing first.

Gill's response is pretty well spot on here. To think that not many coaches will leave is simply to ignore the history of HD updates and/or be blissfully naive. Coaches will leave and more coaches will leave than will come in without some major advertising push. The question is, will enough leave to effectively kill the game (and that is NOT being overly dramatic)?

Posted by therewas47 on 6/2/2016 11:33:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tarvolon on 6/2/2016 11:29:00 PM (view original):
We agree that realism should not be the be all, end all. What you seemed to be arguing is that it shouldn't be given any weight. My argument was meant to rebut that. But I think we might be on the same page (or at least close), but just getting hung up on our terms. At any rate, my view is that real life should be given some weight but less weight than what makes for fun gameplay. So I don't think it's totally irrelevant as an argument, but we should keep in mind that it starts the conversation, not ends it

pretty close to in agreement then. I differ on your last sentence because I think it is irrelevant because the factors that make real life matter manifest themselves in other more important qualities.

For what it's worth, as a neutral third party observer I felt like you two were pretty much saying the same thing, just taking slightly different paths to get there.