I guess I'm not clear on why you care to make that distinction in the context of this discussion.

Just pointing out that he was likely holding onto the ball too long and then attempting to run.  Which is what I said running QB do.   

Sure, but all I really care about is whether he was taking sacks because he held onto the ball too long, as opposed to bad protection.  Whether he let the pocket collapse around him while standing there or tried to escape and failed, it's still a sack.

Regardless, I agree that the sacks don't dramatically alter his contributions one way or another when looking at the raw numbers.  I have no idea if he took a sack to push them out of FG range at any point, or if he got sacked right before one of the missed field goals and made it longer, etc.

Since neither of us saw much of the game, I don't know.  I'm just saying he was likely attempting to run on almost all of them because 5 yard sacks aren't the norm.  It could have been a breakdown in protection, receivers who don't get open or his general lack of experience.   Or all three.  But he was moving towards the line of scimmage.

There are a few factors to be considered here.  Tebow's deep balls still need drastic work, but he showed good touch on a few short passes. But you also have to consider that Fox was not letting him throw the ball in the first half. I'm not sure he even reached 10 attempts before the half. I'm not saying that's bad play-calling, but you can't really blame Tebow for being ineffective passing in the first half when he wasn't getting many attempts.

IMO, if this game was lost, it fell on two people: Matt Prater and John Fox.

Prater missed two makeable FG, but the second should not even have been attempted.  Fourth and 1 on the opponent's 26 yard line at that stage of the game (especially vs. Miami) - I don't know of any other coach in the NFL that's not going for it there.  I'm not saying the Broncos are the Saints or Pats, but it's really hard for your team to score points when you don't take the leash off them.  They were running fairly well, and especially with a guy like Tebow - zero reason not to go for it in that situation.

****** got me 27 fantasy points.

Timmy Time baby!!!

I'll say this Mike....   You make a valid point.  He had numbers at the end of the game that were not God awful.  Here is where you lost me a bit Mike.  You said you would have taken the performance from Tebow for your Raiders (well, hell...  ANYTHING was better than what you guys got yesterday), and went on to say how he kept his team in the game and eventually won it.  Well....  Ryan had his team up 17-6 over a 5-1 team on the road early and held on to win on the road.  You would have to admit...  being ahead of the 5-1 Lions on the road after 3+ quarters, as compared to completing FOUR PASSES for close to 0 net yards after 53 minutes and being down 15-0 to the winless Dolphins....   well....   you can see where that is going.... 

Let's just say, Tim Tebow didnt beat the Dolphins by himself, and he would not have lost by himself.  But I cant see ANY situation where Kyle Orton would not have had the Broncos in a better position to have won that game.  It was 6-0 Miami for a LONG time.  Orton doesnt have bad numbers.  They are middle of the road.  But he puts up points, and yardage.  He has had an INT problem this season (7 so far).  But had Denver's defense played like THAT for Orton, I would assume that the Broncos would not have been down 6-0, 12-0 and 15-0 with FOUR COMPLETIONS for the first 53 minutes. 

Our perception of Tim Tebow coming out of this game is he is a winner.  And he finds ways to win.  Yeah, yeah.  Had Miami not f*cked up, and actually recovered the onside kick (which receiving teams do 84% of the time), I bet we think differently about him.  Take the completions and yards he accumulated on the last drive, including the TD and 2 point conversion out of the argument on how he performed...  he would have lost 15-7, completed 8 of 19 passes for 111 yards and a TD.  Furthermore, when there was 5:23 left in the game when Denver took over on their first scoring drive...  Tebow had completed 4 passes.  a 1 yarder, a 7 yarder, and two 16 yarders for 40 yards.  He had been sacked at that time for 43 yards, netting them -3 yards in the passing game with 5:23 left to go.  Now....   I ask....   is there any way to sugarcoat that?  Yes.  They won.  But with the help of an onside kick after a defense played prevent defense with 5:23 left in the game up 15 points (we can discuss the atrocity that the prevent defense is as well later on).  But there is no defensing how bad he was.  And he was brutal through 54 minutes and 37 seconds.  Had they not recovered the onside kick....  he doesnt win.  And then everyone is torching him for being what he was.  Brutal.

I see your points E, but it's apples and oranges. Tebow turned a sure sack at his 1 into a 20 yard gain.  Orton may have been safetied on that play.  He brings a different dynamic.

And we all agree Tebow's passing needs work.  4/13 going into the fourth isn't good, but it's also hard to get into a rhythm with such few pass attempts.  He won't be an Elway, but he'll improve.

It's also hard to justify the extra attempts when you're that brutal.  I was looking through the play-by-play, I see him at 4 for 8 for 24 yards in the first half, with 2 sacks and 2 scrambles which basically evened out in terms of yardage.  So they averaged 2 yards per pass play in the first half.

The real problem I see Tebow presenting to the Broncos is that I don't think anyone in the organization believes he's their franchise guy.  Normally not the end of the world, and if he can be servicable (unconvinced right now, but it's possible) and win you some games, great.   But, because he's Tim Tebow, unless he fails spectacularly, the Broncos are going to have a PR nightmare on their hands if they want to continue searching for a franchise guy. 

Broncos have 10 games left. If they go 1-9 with Tebow starting I don't think they'll have trouble searching for another QB. If they go 5-5, they'll have an issue, but if they manage to perform well they will likely want Tebow to be their QB.

E, at no point did I say "He's a winner".    I said his numbers were better than two Pro Bowl QB and two highly thought of young QB.    He didn't turn the ball over and give the opponent a short field.  For lack of a better way to put it, he managed the game and made some plays at the end.  That's a successful day.  Now, if they down 33-0 and he finishes with the same numbers to make it 33-15, I guess we have a different story.  But the game is what the scoreboard says. His totals were respectable and his team won.   That's a good day.   

Posted by Jtpsops on 10/24/2011 2:28:00 PM (view original):
I see your points E, but it's apples and oranges. Tebow turned a sure sack at his 1 into a 20 yard gain.  Orton may have been safetied on that play.  He brings a different dynamic.

And we all agree Tebow's passing needs work.  4/13 going into the fourth isn't good, but it's also hard to get into a rhythm with such few pass attempts.  He won't be an Elway, but he'll improve.

JT...  It is apples and oranges with STYLE.  Not overall performance.  You are still comparing QBs.  He was not 4/13 entering the 4th quarter,  He was 4/13 entering the LAST DRIVE with 5 minutes left.  Thats 55 minutes.  Ouch babe.  4 completions for a sum total of 40 yards.  40 yards on 13 attempts.  Ouch.  He likely was not getting attempts because they could not afford to trust in him to produce yardage. 

He is a problem for Denver.  He is a problem because the rest of the team is so poor, that even with Orton performing on a level equal to or slightly above the NFL average, they were 1-4, so their fans called for a change.  And the change (as we often find) is no better than the original.  There is NO WAY that Tebow would start on about 30 of the 32 NFL teams without an injury to a QB on the roster somewhere, or a 1-4 start to a season (Orton did NOT deserve to be benched).  Tim Tebow is a humble man who often says the right things in public, and is a great face for an organization.  If he had Aaron Rodgers skill set to go with it, he would be the ideal NFL QB.  However, he doesnt.  He cant throw a spiral.  He has difficulty finding open receivers quickly enough to get rid of the ball from the pocket, and often scrambles when someone was open.  And the team is seemingly unwilling to open the playbook for him enough so that they will find out if he will EVER be an NFL QB.  At least the Vikings allowed Ponder to throw the ball.  We found out that he has an arm, he can scramble, and he sometimes will make rookie mistakes.  But we know more about him today than yesterday.  We know NOTHING more about Tebow today than yesterday other than he can bore us to death by having to watch an NFL game with 4 completions in 55 minutes from a team.

Posted by MikeT23 on 10/24/2011 3:04:00 PM (view original):
E, at no point did I say "He's a winner".    I said his numbers were better than two Pro Bowl QB and two highly thought of young QB.    He didn't turn the ball over and give the opponent a short field.  For lack of a better way to put it, he managed the game and made some plays at the end.  That's a successful day.  Now, if they down 33-0 and he finishes with the same numbers to make it 33-15, I guess we have a different story.  But the game is what the scoreboard says. His totals were respectable and his team won.   That's a good day.   

Yeah yeah.  Miami recovers that onside kick, and he sucks.  He was fortunate to even have an opportunity.  Granted, he DID get the opportunity and maxxed out.  But overall, I am unimpressed.

True enough Mike.  You didnt say he was a winner.  Every media guy is saying it.  And boo on them.  He won because the Dolphins were slightly more inept than his performance.