Happy Trails Mariano Topic

deanod
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Posted by edsortails on 5/8/2012 1:16:00 PM (view original):
yes, but Jeter would have probably been a mediocre starting pitcher, so I guess you have to leave him out of the Hall....
I've missed your stunning wit, edso.
5/8/2012 1:18 PM
tecwrg
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If Jeter was a starting pitcher, what would his FIP be?
5/8/2012 1:20 PM
MikeT23
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I'm almost certain Jeter would have been an excellent starting pitcher.

He threw several no-hitters at age 12-13.   There's no reason to think he wouldn't have been an excellent pitcher had he stayed on the mound.
5/8/2012 1:20 PM
jrd_x
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Posted by tecwrg on 5/8/2012 1:15:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jrd_x on 5/8/2012 1:11:00 PM (view original):
Posted by deanod on 5/8/2012 1:07:00 PM (view original):
"Can we say that Rivera would have been anywhere near as dominant as a starter?  I don't think so.  Which is why Rivera is not an all time great, inner circle Hall of Famer."

This doesn't pertain to anything really because he had a valuable career without ever starting.  It's approximately as relevant as arguing that Jeter doesn't belong in the inner circle of the HoF because he couldn't cut it as a starting pitcher- who gives a ****?
Well it does matter.  Had Rivera been able to maintain the same rate stats in a starting role as opposed to relief, would you start him or leave him in the bullpen?

Regarding your analogy, if Jeter had been a DH, do his offensive stats make him a Hall of Famer?
3100+ hits, a .314 career AVG, .384 career OBP.

Yes, those are HOF numbers despite the position.
So you'd vote for Edgar Martinez?  He was a better offensive player than Jeter, hitting .312/.418/.515 over 8674 PA. 

(I would vote for Martinez, if it matters)
5/8/2012 1:21 PM
deanod
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I think the better question is whether Manny Ramirez would have cut it as a HoFer as a SS.
5/8/2012 1:26 PM
jrd_x
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Posted by deanod on 5/8/2012 1:18:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jrd_x on 5/8/2012 1:11:00 PM (view original):
Posted by deanod on 5/8/2012 1:07:00 PM (view original):
"Can we say that Rivera would have been anywhere near as dominant as a starter?  I don't think so.  Which is why Rivera is not an all time great, inner circle Hall of Famer."

This doesn't pertain to anything really because he had a valuable career without ever starting.  It's approximately as relevant as arguing that Jeter doesn't belong in the inner circle of the HoF because he couldn't cut it as a starting pitcher- who gives a ****?
Well it does matter.  Had Rivera been able to maintain the same rate stats in a starting role as opposed to relief, would you start him or leave him in the bullpen?

Regarding your analogy, if Jeter had been a DH, do his offensive stats make him a Hall of Famer?
zzzzzzzz who cares?  That's a stupid question that serves no purpose other than to derail.

He put up very good offensive numbers as a SS so he's in, how he would have done in a different role in an alternate reality is just mental masturbation that means nothing to the discussion at hand.
What???

Position matters.  Shortstop isn't a different role, it's where he stood on the field.  His offensive numbers wouldn't change if he couldn't field a ground ball, but his value relative all the other players in baseball would.
5/8/2012 1:27 PM
edsortails
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where is John Elway in this discussion?


he would have been awesome if he had played baseball.....
5/8/2012 1:29 PM
deanod
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You know what else matters?  Reading comprehension!  You should try to become competent at it one of these days.

edit- try swapping "how he would have done" with "what his value would have been" and maybe it will make sense to you.
5/8/2012 1:34 PM (edited)
MikeT23
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Posted by deanod on 5/8/2012 1:26:00 PM (view original):
I think the better question is whether Manny Ramirez would have cut it as a HoFer as a SS.
He knew how to cut-off throws from the OF.
5/8/2012 1:29 PM
jm1618
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Manny Mota was the best pinch-hitter of all time.  Does that make him inner-circle HOF?


(Just thought I'd play a little devil's advocate)
5/8/2012 1:36 PM
jrd_x
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Posted by jm1618 on 5/8/2012 1:36:00 PM (view original):
Manny Mota was the best pinch-hitter of all time.  Does that make him inner-circle HOF?


(Just thought I'd play a little devil's advocate)
Seriously.  Mota was awesome in his role.  GOAT.  Ted Williams was a great hitter but I don't think we can know one way or another if he could have mentally prepared himself enough to succeed in a pitch hitter role.  Totally different mindset.
5/8/2012 1:39 PM
deanod
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I think before getting into DH discussions we need to decide whether Mariano's career would have been even better if Tim Tebow got in a time machine that sent him back to 1995 where he fortuitously became the Yankees' bench coach.
5/8/2012 1:39 PM
deanod
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Posted by MikeT23 on 5/8/2012 1:29:00 PM (view original):
Posted by deanod on 5/8/2012 1:26:00 PM (view original):
I think the better question is whether Manny Ramirez would have cut it as a HoFer as a SS.
He knew how to cut-off throws from the OF.
This is why he'd probably be the best player of all time as a SS.  So let us anoint him as such!
5/8/2012 1:40 PM
jrd_x
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Posted by deanod on 5/8/2012 1:34:00 PM (view original):
You know what else matters?  Reading comprehension!  You should try to become competent at it one of these days.

edit- try swapping "how he would have done" with "what his value would have been" and maybe it will make sense to you.
His value as a SS is significantly more than as a DH.  What position he played matters. 
5/8/2012 1:42 PM
jrd_x
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Posted by deanod on 5/8/2012 1:40:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 5/8/2012 1:29:00 PM (view original):
Posted by deanod on 5/8/2012 1:26:00 PM (view original):
I think the better question is whether Manny Ramirez would have cut it as a HoFer as a SS.
He knew how to cut-off throws from the OF.
This is why he'd probably be the best player of all time as a SS.  So let us anoint him as such!
He couldn't play SS, but if he had been able to play even league average defense at SS, then yeah, he'd have a legitimate argument for inclusion in the top 4 or 5 position players of all time.
5/8/2012 1:45 PM
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