Quote: Originally Posted By jakotay on 2/21/2010
Seriously Trevor.... you worked at HD... are you not allowed to have friends that shop there? If you do have a friend there can you not discuss nails and hammers? Coley this is apples and oranges, and please stop talking like you know me. I wasn't running something that customers could play per se....these are completely different dynamics that you're trying to meld together. And the fact that WIS Admins don't accept user sitemail is a clear sign that the WIS/customer relationship is supposed to be "professional" because if you're "friends" with an admin...who's to say what you were/weren't doing/talking about? I'm supposed to take your word at face value just because you say so?

Its none of WIS' business what their employees do away from work. Its certainly not any of yours. And if you think users on this site do not discuss things with staff you are completely wrong. They can choose who they associate with. I help with a lot of BETA testing. back in the day user's used to play cards at the compound after work with some of the people there. Why in the he!! would anyone think they are not allowed to do that? because they won't acknowledge you? Look in the mirror. Read your old threads. Listen to how you talk to them. They owe you nothing and you get out of them (and the site verbatim) EXACTLY what you put into it. That candle burns at both ends. WIS has been equally, if not more foul to me as I have been to them, and I'm not justifying my past behavior, but the ball is in their court to take the high road, and I haven't seen a company/customer support do that less, and that's well documented throughout the site. WIS CS is more interested in winning the argument/being "right" than listening to and acknowledging customer problems. You can call me a WIS hater, but to the other extreme, you seem to be a WIS brown noser, thus you aren't exactly objective either. There are more people on my side in regards to WIS' actions/customer support than on your side...I hope you realize that.

Nothing. If you only knew some of the things that went on. Again, I am no saint, but the responses were incredibly ridiculous, arrogant, and pompous. You don't really know of my relationship with WIS, so stop typing as such.

You want to be chummy with WIS learn what its like to be chummy for crying out loud. No I don't want to be chummy with WIS...why on earth would I want to be "friends" with the most arrogant bunch of folks that I've ever met in the business world, period? I own up to my work and what I do...can you honestly say that for WIS? There's one answer here...NOPE.

What WIS protocol are you referring too anyways? The fact that you can't sitemail admins...you're not supposed to be CHUMMY with the WIS brass for COI reasons...not hard to understand.

How come just one user (or 10 max I guess) is having such a hard on over this? Oh yea... grudge. Admit it already. Or get over it. If 2,000 people were emailing Ryan then maybe its worth noting. But for one user? Specially one with the track record he has here??????? What ever. Did you ever figure that people just don't give a crap about BTB here? If BTB was such a success here, why did Paul leave and go start a BTB site elsewhere? Hmmmmmmmmm...I wonder. I was the one that has said all along that BTB doesn't belong on WIS, and ironically enough, it seems that Paul got intelligent and actually listened to me, because he finally figured out that I was right. BTB gets virtually no viewership here, because people don't come here to view predictions, especially of the ridiculous ilk that WIS nostradamizes. You can call it a grudge all you want, the bottom line is AGAIN, that there was never any closure with the things that were debated, thus why should I let them go, just because a WIS brown noser wants me to? Child, please... WIS purports this image that they're always right and I for one am not drinking the Kool-Aid. People need to know the ENTIRE truth, and that's what I'm here for.

Quote: Originally Posted By ashamael on 2/21/2010what's going on here, guys

Quote: Originally Posted By jakotay on 2/22/2010



"Don't act like you know me". Two things- what did I say about you that wasn't true (or you haven't discussed with me previously)? What exactly have I discussed with you previously? I mentioned once or twice in these forums A LONG TIME AGO that I worked at Home Depot and you try to use it (rather poorly I may add) to make your argument? I simply didn't appreciate it, and I said so. And Mr. Pot Calling the Kettle Black, .....you have put more labels on me than I have put on you. Are you or are you not on the PRO-WIS side of this argument? I'm ANTI-WIS/Paul...so.... You make assumption after assumption. Don't get me wrong, I understand you need it to bolster your arguments. Don't kid yourself...I call people as I see them...on here at least. I am not defending WIS and am getting real sick of the WIS defender tag. I am not here defending WIS or any of its employees. O RLY? Just sayng the expectations of the majority are not in line with your rather singular, narrow views. And my expectations are? Again, asking all people to own up to and be accountable for everything they do is somehow wrong? I expect that out of myself, therefore I think its fair to ask the same of everyone else. You are in my opinion the other problem WIS has. (And you can save the speech touting yourself as trying to get things fixed and you are here trying to better the game/site because you care so much. Its a pile of sh!t whether you admit it or not). My intent has always been good, it may not have always come across like that, but I always wanted the game(s) to get better. I virtually take up ZERO of WIS' time and have basically resigned myself to accept the NBA sim as is and not play it because of the pile of junk that it is. I've agreed to back off and I have. The NBA sim is boring to me anyhow. Again, the main factor I think you're forgetting in my ordeals with WIS are the return responses from WIS...very arrogant, pompous, and they suggest they're never wrong...that's WIS to me...Paul was no different. You want to know the main reason I don't respect Paul, go read the Top 100 Rookies thread in the NFL GD forum that I bumped....he wouldn't even back his own predictions...but again, I'm just supposed to let this go and wish Paul well because he isn't here anymore...HA! please. I don't dismiss the hoops sim needs an overhaul or the football sim is as stale as last weeks bread. Nor do I contest their BTB is fool proof (nor would any normal person expect as such). And more importantly (and to the main point of discussion) I don't care if they admit what others think is wrong... whether I agree with the results or not. You're arguing old news and dead issues here...I'm not griping about the NBA and NFL sims anymore. BTB is a waste of time though, and I'm glad to see that they got that Canada-US hockey game right as well...

So please stop with the whole WIS defender thing. Dude, you're pretty well doing all you can to back former WIS employee tinmanpb. If I was going after e-monk's posts (when he could) all the time, or ash's rants, or anyone else's and defending WIS in the process, then label me. Their posts are about the game and output (and in E's case a soured relationship with one of the staff). So that's ok for him to do but not me? Nice double standard. But at no time (that I can see post wise) do they expect WIS to admit things they disagree with or cater to them specifically. Your issues are about you were right and they won't admit it. So again, get overself. You needing them to say you were right and they were wrong is pretty pathetic. This is entirely not the case...I want WIS to be accountable for everything that they do and I'm tired of them justifying everything that happens in their games because by doing so, they act like they're never wrong. If I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit it...conversely, they'd be the last...and its undoubtedly hurt their business...look at the NBA sim. I am not defending WIS. Whether you think so or not...you are. I am merely voicing my disdain for your expectations and attitude. You foul up the forums with self based rhetoric and it is a negative to the vast majority of users here. And like I said, you don't understand the entire breadth of the situation. Given my past experiences with Paul, tell me why I should respect him and let bygones be bygones, and if your only/best answer is, "because I think you should" then don't waste your breath. I don't want to have to make posts like this, but when people return fire, they're getting it right back, rightly or wrongly. If I **** some extraneous people in the process, then so be it, but it isn't the intent.

You'd have to ask Paul about his departure. You are again making an assumption that he AND did so to do another venture. So because I don't know for certain, I can't guess at what happened? LOL For all I know (and you for that matter) he did not leave on his own or did not have the intentions of doing something similar. Or maybe he did I really don't know the answer to this nor do I care. If I was an engineer all my life and I was removed/laid-off/fired/quit my job I would suspect I would try and find work in a similar field. That is common sense to me. So a statistician leaving a site where predictions are made and going to or creating a site that is similar seems kind of expected and unsurprising. Who cares why he ? He obviously saw greener pastures elsewhere and ironically enough it came after me saying countless times that BTB is worthless to a site like this. You think Burger King shouldn't exist because McDonalds already did? Or a burger flipper from one can't quit and go to the other.... or start their own place?

People need to know the whole truth? You really believe that is the best way to approach this? Just say "People need to know I was right on something and that WIS was wrong" instead. I'm trying to paint the entire picture. WIS/Paul/Ryan only want to show the good, then I'm going to be the one that shows the bad...they want to show 1 half, well I'll show and remind people of the other, because many of those OTHER predicitions are incredibly ridiculous. What exactly is wrong with me speaking out against/bringing up the other side of a story of someone/a company that I don't really respect due to past experience? I don't just accept things at face value because A. Guys like you think I should or B. because I'm in the minority...I will always have a sound, logical opinion about everything, and just because you don't agree with it or how its presented, it doesn't make my claims any less valid.People needing to know the truth and wanting or caring enough about the truth is an entirely different argument. It doesn't really matter if people care about BTB or not, its there in the public eye and its subject to as much criticism as anything.

Lastly, way to gloss over the part about WIS employees and customers not being able to trade sitemails, and the COI that would ensue...I love when people skirt vital issues.

Quote: Originally Posted By jakotay on 2/22/2010It was a point of reference (HD)... something to relate to. The comparison was way off though because WIS and HD are two completely different businesses that deal with customers in 2 completely different ways.

I am not on either side of the WIS argument, nor do I need to be. I am on the side that feels you're a tool for pushing this so hard. If WIS was eliminated from the equation you'd still be you.... right? Of course I'd still be me. I only discuss this kind of stuff when its brought up, or if something is so egregiously illogical (Cavs v. Blazers...WIS patting themselves on the back for having a good prediction system). Superbeast brought this up because he wanted to see my reaction to it, and he got more than he bargained for. I give people what they want while still being true to myself, what more can you ask for? There is no other side to this. The real question is whether or not I am on your side or against your side. Again, its not a WIS issue to me.

I can't act like I know you but you can call people as you "see them"? Typical colonels. I didn't bring up your personal life now did I Coley? I just thought it was underhanded that you would bring that up without even having met me...like you know who I am...that's what I took exception with.

Why to people have to own up just to you? I want them to be accountable to everyone. Just because I'm the most outspoken guy about these kinds of things doesn't mean that others don't care just as much. Like I said, as long as its in the public eye and WIS is typing not entirely true claims without asterisks, it will be subject to both praise and criticism...you don't get one without the other. FWIW, I'll be interested to see how Paul chronicles his predictions on his site, because last night I took a look and supposedly he's going to be 100% accountable...time will tell, and I don't give him the benefit of the doubt for the time being because of our past experiences. 50 don't care and one does so lets cater to the one? Isn't that why schools can't put a cross in the halls? That type of thought process goes against what the majority feels but this is the "me" generation so we have to live with it. Guess I'm just different in that regard. If a large mass of people complained I am sure they would do something. When its a small percentage their best interests are elsewhere. Its a business decision. I completely agree that you play to the masses, that's simply smart business. Given the updates that many of the games need here that paying customers play, BTB is a waste of time and resources, again this is something that I told Ryan the CM via email to which he had no response. Just acknowledging at this point that the argument is getting muddy...jumping between WIS BTB and Paul...just noting.

I am not backing Paul. I never said the content is accurate. I agree with monkee's (and others) claims that things are out of whack in the hoops sim (i.e., guestimated stats, DEF cost relative to weight in sim games a nd so forth). You're not backing him but you sure went out of your way to speak out against my criticisms of him and his site, so what does that really say?

I never said you can't pitch a fit about things. They never demanded answers. Despite flaws we ALL have they are not carrying on in such a pious way. You are not that but act as such. Trust me, I have many flaws and I know it, this can arguably be one of them...not shutting up online when I probably should, but the argument is still going on thus I'm still here. I'm no better than anyone else, but when it comes to sports and sports information, I have incredibly high standards, and when someone does something that only lauds the good and buries the bad, then I feel a need to say something. If you think I'm an *** for doing so, then so be it. Just because 1 person doesn't like what I say, doesn't mean that I'm going to shut my mouth, that's just not good business. The proof is in the numbers and I highly doubt that BTB gets much readership anyhow

Actually colonels you want WIS to be accountable to you and just you. Actually TO EVERYBODY Or you and 10-20 others. It makes sense to keep the hundreds of not thousands of others content than to cater to such a small group pertaining to such a small issue. People don't care as a whole and thats that. Doesn;t mean you can take issue with it but its about time you accept it for what it is. So I'm just supposed to shut up about it because everyone knows its bad, therefore it doesn't need to be said...I don't play that. Again, shutting up because you think I should is not a good enough reason.

You can guess what happened but you did not write it that way. You wrote it in a way that makes the reader assume as such. You said in a previous post that college is for fools (just so you know I am not pretending to know you... it came from you directly) Ironic because I graduated with Honors with a BA in Communications in August 2007...thus you're basing your thoughts and premises of me based upon things that happened/were said 5-6 years ago, and quite frankly, I'm not that same person. I always have and will always argue my viewpoint online, that's just me. however I think you would benefit from a creative writing course. This is typical spin in corporate America. I am not saying I like it but its everywhere. If I didn't think that Paul took to heart some of the things I said, directly or indirectly to him/about his product(s), then I wouldn't be saying/suggesting that that was/is the case.

Having a sound, responsible opinion is fine. But when you have a bullhorn next to your opponents ear then it becomes less effective. If WIS would own up to the entirety of its predictions, I would shut up, period. Again, asking a public business run by a mega-sports network to be accountable is somehow blasphemy? That's funny.

Its in the public eye... by choice. Move on if you do not like it. Its not my style, and things like this suggest that you don't think anything should be criticized, so if you don't like it, be tight lipped and keep walking...that's just not me on these boards.

Not skirting the other issue. WIS put the kabosh on it because people like you were taking to much of their time. I never sent one sitemail to any admin and I think you'd be shocked at by how few tickets I've sent, and the cander that I've had in the tickets that I have sent. You love to spout off about things you don't know about, but it isn't ok for others to do...great logic. They directed everyone to use support tickets instead so workers can focus on their work AND issues can be tracked/accounted for. If they received 200 support tickets relating to any one single issue in the hoops sim, I guarantee you they would be more likely to look at the issue more closely. You can almost set your clock to it, if there's an issue that happened in one game, you're GUARANTEED to get the "Its only one game" response. We're not wrong, extreme randomness just happens. If you don't think COI and collusion issues were reasons that guys can't converse with admins, then I think you're being blind to the situation. If I know you're buddy buddy with WIS admins, I have every reason to believe/wonder if they're doing favors for you or not...whether you like it or not.

But back to the point... they announced this. And everyone follows it and no one seems to take issue with it. You do. Big Fregin Deal.

Sad really... all this over the way things are worded. Was Paul wrong or was the output wrong. Was there a guarantee I missed? The way things were worded? HAHA! Its just a tad more than that. I'm taking exception with lauding "good" results and essentially discarding the bad ones. 2008, Utah over Boston, with the Lakers losing in the 1st round of the playoffs...oh wait, they "correctly" picked Boston over the Lakers that year...silly me................

Quote: Originally Posted By jakotay on 2/22/2010No you did not bring up your personal life. You did however post in these forums that you worked at HD. Was a long time ago...you just know of what I was, not what I am. If you do not want me to use it don't post it. Just like WIS needing to be accountable for what they post. Oh wait... this is different too, right? Nope, if its out in the open, its fair game and everyone has to be accountable for their posts. Whenever it doesn't fit your narrow-minded view its apples and oranges or different, or some other thing you stretch to make it different. If you can't see how HD and WIS are different, along with their CS styles, then I can't help you.

A point of reference is a point of reference. I've been ignored more at HD than here because unlike you I pump my chest out in person, not in a forum thread. I ****** off the guy at the Roseville store and was told to leave. That's surprising and I'm being serious. I'm very laid back and easy going in person (I understand this is hard to believe) but it really does take a lot to **** me off. The more passionate I am about something, the more assertiveness you'll see come out, but even so in person I don't get to the top of my lungs...if you and I disagreed in person, I would just agree to disagree and I would respect your viewpoint(s) and move along. The internet is a different animal altogether. I think this is where you see the best of me from a debate standpoint because words, viewpoints, etc aren't getting caught up in the shuffle of human interaction. I can handle my own in person, but I'm not really a confrontational guy, so I'm not going to call someone out on every last thing that they say. You'd be surprised at how much I pick and choose my spots...I bite my tongue very well....most times. I think I got cheated but I the building and the issue there because there was no need to further it. If I thought I was cheated, I'm winning that argument/fight/debate/refund issue, period.It was what it was, i think they were wrong, they disagreed and that was it. IF it were a major purchase or potential issue that could have hurt someone... I would have stayed on it,. Instead I was asked to leave the store. And I did. I have never been treated like that here. Same issue and don;t tell me its not. Completely different scenarios...completely different. CS at HD sucks to me as much as WIS does for you. But the most important thing is that my exploits at HD matter to the readers here as much as your exploits with WIS do. And thankfully we have Lowes to fall back on. Ok, so if someone brings up HD, what's the first thing you're talking about? The time you were wronged and were asked to leave the store. People always remember the negative more than the positive and here is no exception. People ask me to talk about WIS, the negative is coming out first, especially if you ask me about the attitudes of the admins or BTB. Those are still 2 completely different business encounters.

Who else is clamoring for this besides you? Where are all these people at? I see you and just you. I don't need people to back me...just because there's no one else saying anything I should shut up? Not happening There is no everybody. You want WIS to be accountable to your claims then... perhaps its better said that way. I want WIS to be accountable for EVERYTHING that it outputs, not just the good....burying the "wrong" stuff is incredibly weak and that's what I'm making known and that is what I won't let die. People can do the same to/for me...I expect it. But I do not need them to be accountable for anything I am not paying for. If I read and accept it, so what? So you have to pay for something to disagree with it or argue against it? Got it........

Grats on a BA in communications. But I can't understand how you do not see this type of thing everyday. What type of thing? I'm admittedly lost with this statement.

After they predict an outcome for the NBA playoffs and one of the teams get ousted, are they not supposed to re run the results with the remaining teams? would saying "One of the teams beat our predictions... here are the results based on who is " make a difference? If so, so they really need to type that in? Isn't it obvious? They act like those other predictions never existed, that's the problem I have. When they're wrong, they don't matter, but when they're right, they're beating the gawl damned door down telling everyone about how they were right...is that genuine? Do you see why someone would get frustrated over a practice like this? 2007 Rockies over Red Sox is hilarious by the way, considering that Boston swept Colorado...just saying. They should rename it BTB Plus, because there are no negative things that go on there.

Quote: Originally posted by ashamael on 2/22/2010man there's a lot of text here.