But again, you assume the hitter always has a choice. Do you think if a big hitter walks in a key situation, he's thinking about run probability? Could it just be that he didn't get a pitch to hit, so rather than swing at crap, he decided the next guy up might get a better one to hit?

Your stance a) reads a lot into things and b) assumes that every walk is a borderline pitch that the hitter could've driven in a run with.

Posted by Jtpsops on 8/18/2017 1:40:00 PM (view original):
But again, you assume the hitter always has a choice. Do you think if a big hitter walks in a key situation, he's thinking about run probability? Could it just be that he didn't get a pitch to hit, so rather than swing at crap, he decided the next guy up might get a better one to hit?

Your stance a) reads a lot into things and b) assumes that every walk is a borderline pitch that the hitter could've driven in a run with.

Nope, I'm not thinking or assuming that at all.

Let's take the simplest example. A decent hitter is ahead in the count 3-0. The sabrmetrics approach says "take" because with a 3-0 count, it's great to get a walk. The "old school" approach says that's a hitter's count, and unless the pitcher is giving up on the AB, he's going to either groove one for an "automatic strike" or try to hit the corner with a hittable pitch.

So is your contention that was the scenario every time Edgar drew a walk?

This whole line of argument is based on the notion that every time Edgar walked, he could have chosen instead to swing at Ball 4 and put it in play. Which is a very foolish assumption.

Posted by Jtpsops on 8/18/2017 2:39:00 PM (view original):
So is your contention that was the scenario every time Edgar drew a walk?

This whole line of argument is based on the notion that every time Edgar walked, he could have chosen instead to swing at Ball 4 and put it in play. Which is a very foolish assumption.

Holy ****, did BL hack your account?

I don't think anyone is saying that "every time" Edgar walked that he could have put the ball in play.

But it's logical to believe that there were some times when he walked that he had opportunities to put the ball in play and chose not to. And on some of those opportunities there were runners in scoring position that would have benefited ( i.e. advanced a base or scored) from him doing so.

It's also logical to believe Ted Williams walked at times when a hit would've been better. I don't hear it being used to negatively assess his abilities as a hitter. You e jumped on the Mike train again and you're riding it right off a cliff.

I'm seeing two schools of thought why Edgar isn't in the HOF. Mine (the right one) claims that he was great at one aspect of baseball, and demonstrably BAD at the rest, meaning his total value is less than his hitting value, dropping him below the imaginary HOF level. The other one claims he "walked too much" and could've helped his team more by whacking a few borderline pitches or teeing off on 3-0 when he had the chance.

Personally I never said he doesn't belong in the HoF because he walked too much. That's just silly. All I said was I know there were times it would have been better for him to swing the back rather tan take a walk. I'm pretty sure there were also times when taking a walk was the right thing to do. That has nothing to with whether he belongs in the Hall or not. My personal opinion is he does not, but there are many players already there I don't think deserve it. It would not be a complete travesty if he ended up there.

Posted by wylie715 on 8/18/2017 3:46:00 PM (view original):
Personally I never said he doesn't belong in the HoF because he walked too much. That's just silly. All I said was I know there were times it would have been better for him to swing the back rather tan take a walk. I'm pretty sure there were also times when taking a walk was the right thing to do. That has nothing to with whether he belongs in the Hall or not. My personal opinion is he does not, but there are many players already there I don't think deserve it. It would not be a complete travesty if he ended up there.

Which is fair. Both your and todd's positions are valid.

Saying a guy with Edgar's hitting stats isn't deserving because he "walked too much" is flat out stupid...maybe among the stupidest positions held on this site, which is saying a lot.

I would almost rather see the HOF segmented by great hitters (with appropriate highlights and paraphernalia), great fielders, great baserunners, and a special place for the all-time greats (the pantheon, so to speak).

That way, Edgar could be honored with the great DH's of his time in one area, Omar Vizquel could be honored with the great glovemen (and barehanders), Vince Coleman/Willie Wilson could be honored... all in their appropriate areas.

And the true greats can keep their pantheon

Posted by wylie715 on 8/18/2017 3:46:00 PM (view original):
Personally I never said he doesn't belong in the HoF because he walked too much. That's just silly. All I said was I know there were times it would have been better for him to swing the back rather tan take a walk. I'm pretty sure there were also times when taking a walk was the right thing to do. That has nothing to with whether he belongs in the Hall or not. My personal opinion is he does not, but there are many players already there I don't think deserve it. It would not be a complete travesty if he ended up there.

Agree completely.

You guys know you don't have to have walked to have taken a pitch you could have hit. You know, like that 3-0, 3-1 count.

Anyway, and I'm sure BL has the thread on file, he "walked too much" is just something I sort of let roll because it ****** off BL so much.
Hit>walk>out.
It's just that there are times when I want my better hitter taking cuts rather than pitches. I felt, with those Seattle teams, that I'd rather have EM swinging the bat rather than passing it on to the next guy.

The next guy was who, maybe Jay Buhner? The guy that slugged about .500? Yeah, you don't want men on base for that.

And it's not Edgar's fault that he was batting behind guys like A-Rod and Griffey when he should have been batting ahead of them.

You mean THE GREAT JAY BUHNER!?!??!?

Get back to me when we have multiple discussions on the HOF-worthiness of JAY BUHNER, OK?

Posted by dahsdebater on 8/18/2017 4:47:00 PM (view original):
The next guy was who, maybe Jay Buhner? The guy that slugged about .500? Yeah, you don't want men on base for that.

And it's not Edgar's fault that he was batting behind guys like A-Rod and Griffey when he should have been batting ahead of them.

What they still fail to realize is that it still may be better to have even a .250 hitter up swinging at strikes than a .330 hitter up there swinging at pitches outside the zone and trying to put them in play.

It seems in their minds, every situation is created equal (ie: all Edgar's walks came on a borderline pitch with runners in scoring position, two outs and a .220 hitter on deck).

its amazing how you know what's in my mind. Nobody ever said everytime Edgar walked it was on a borderline pitch and he should have swung at it, or at least I never said that. All I said is there were times, if I was his manager, I would have preferred he try to get a hit instead of taking a walk. Of course I am not and never will be a major league manager, so what the hell do I know?