Full Letter Grade Prestige Difference - Recruiting Topic

kmasonbx1
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Yea, I wasted a bunch of money on phone calls (haven't sent more than a few calls to a recruit since). But I do not think billy did more than double the effort. I feel if OR was correct about the prestige being the same at D2 and D3 as it is in D1 then Billy would've had to have done something like 4x the effort and there's no way he could even afford to do that.
2/1/2011 1:47 PM
gillispie
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Posted by kmasonbx1 on 2/1/2011 1:47:00 PM (view original):
Yea, I wasted a bunch of money on phone calls (haven't sent more than a few calls to a recruit since). But I do not think billy did more than double the effort. I feel if OR was correct about the prestige being the same at D2 and D3 as it is in D1 then Billy would've had to have done something like 4x the effort and there's no way he could even afford to do that.
well im glad you agree i didn't do more than double - i was almost sure on that one, but its nice to get confirmation :) i know that at the time, it proved what i already suspected - that d2/d3 prestige was almost negligible in battles, its really about having more players open to talking to you. it was just too close, the amount of effort, it left 0 ambiguity in my mind. while i don't remember every detail of the situation, i remember thinking that even 10% was a stretch to explain how i could have won the battle (which, i fully expected to win, but was surprised how it went down - i feel like i won at the morning after signings when its not even that close, and was surprised. not sure. but i do know for sure i thought it might even have to be under 10% to explain the situation).
2/1/2011 2:34 PM
daalter
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I agree with OR that prestige difference seems to be about 2x for a full letter grade in DI, or about 1.33 per third of a grade. That's the # I've heard a good bit from talking to some very experienced coaches, and it definitely seems to jive when I've double checked battles. It can actually seem a little funkier if the teams are close (like A- vs. B+), because a low A- vs. high B+ could easily be 1.1, while a low B+ vs. high A- could be closer to 1.5. 

I'm not so sure about DII/DIII, although I believe seble told me awhile back that the effect is not as profound outside of DI. Not really in the mood to try and dig around for that ticket, lol.
2/1/2011 10:05 PM
tkimble
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From a ticket about 3 months ago:

11/1/2010 7:00 PM Customer Support
Everything looks to be in order. You just got outspent and lost a close battle. In DII and DIII there isn't the same separation between prestige levels as in DI, so while that did help you, it's not as large of an advantage as it would be in DI.
2/1/2011 10:42 PM
tianyi7886
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Well, here is the result of the battle. I won but I actually outspent my opponent by almost $3000 with A+ prestige, vs C.

Him:

Date Description Cost 
2/2/2011 letters - (7) $105 
2/2/2011 home visit $315 
1/31/2011 declined scholarship offer $100 
1/31/2011 guaranteed minutes - (30) $10 
1/31/2011 guaranteed starting spot $10 
1/31/2011 home visits - (10) $3,150 
1/30/2011 Added to Watch List N/A 
1/30/2011 Added to Watch List N/A 
Total $3,690 

Me:
 
Date Description Cost
2/3/2011 home visits - (2) $610  
2/1/2011 scholarship offer $100  
2/1/2011 home visits - (2) $610  
2/1/2011 home visit $305  
2/1/2011 home visits - (3) $915  
1/31/2011 home visits - (2) $610  
1/31/2011 home visits - (3) $915  
1/31/2011 home visits - (5) $1,525  
1/30/2011 Added to Watch List N/A  
  Total $5,590
2/3/2011 12:20 PM
tianyi7886
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I think FSS had us as even at the 2/1 AM update, and me heavily favored by 2/1 PM. Last 2 HV was just to finish it off since rest of my class were signed and I had cash left over. The starting spot and 30min PT had huge value. 
2/3/2011 12:22 PM
gillispie
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Posted by daalter on 2/1/2011 10:05:00 PM (view original):
I agree with OR that prestige difference seems to be about 2x for a full letter grade in DI, or about 1.33 per third of a grade. That's the # I've heard a good bit from talking to some very experienced coaches, and it definitely seems to jive when I've double checked battles. It can actually seem a little funkier if the teams are close (like A- vs. B+), because a low A- vs. high B+ could easily be 1.1, while a low B+ vs. high A- could be closer to 1.5. 

I'm not so sure about DII/DIII, although I believe seble told me awhile back that the effect is not as profound outside of DI. Not really in the mood to try and dig around for that ticket, lol.
i probably need to re-evaluate my position, with so many coaches on the 2x wagon. but, i've long felt the advantage of prestige in recruiting is a lot less, only 1.5x per prestige grade.

you are definitely right about the partial prestige grades *really* muddying the water. in d1, you rarely have battles more than 1 prestige difference. even at 1 grade, that could be 1.33, or .67, a factor of 2 difference. which actually perfectly corresponds to our 1.5x vs 2x viewpoints, if you assume prestige scales linearly (i think its interesting that the few people i know think prestige is only 1.5, or less, often thing prestige scales geometrically (its multiplied), while the people who are at higher values almost all assume its linearly - that would bring our figures closer together over larger prestiges, relatively speaking). and once you throw in all the other stuff nobody is sure about, like HV:CV, the value of a local pref or away pref recruit, etc... i guess i can see how you can probably justify both figures in most situations. i feel like 2 didn't really work in a lot of the battles i've looked for, and 1.5 did, but i was also probably trying to justify what i already believed. so i guess ill start looking at it again.

just as a 3rd point of reference, lostmyth's FAQ has prestige around 1.7. almost half way between 1.5 and 2, maybe we should all just listen to him?
2/3/2011 12:36 PM
mykids_31206
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Does childhood favorite school factor in anything?

2/3/2011 1:00 PM
jetwildcat
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 OR's 2x model just doesnt make sense to me, whether its linear or multiplicative (i'm not sure what he means)

for example

if D is our baseline (1x), D+ is 1.333x, C- is 1.667x, C is 2x

say you want to compare D+ to C-, you're talking about a ratio of C- = 1.25xD+. then C=1.2xC-. it just wouldnt make sense anymore.

if it truly goes up in a linear fashion, and A=4x while A-=3.667x, you're dealing with a difference of 1.09x. I REALLY find that difficult to believe, that the "average" A- is that close to the "average" A

if it's 2x and it's multiplicative, then it would be 1.26x each third of a grade (if D=1, D+=1.26, C-=1.59, C=2). this is also possible but it seems a little severe. I can think of at least a few instances where i've tried to bump off a D prestige sim with a B d1 team...if i had a 4x prestige advantage, there's no way i'd have had as much trouble.

despite popular opinion of a lot of successful coaches i'm not sippin the kool-aid here.
2/3/2011 1:08 PM
cheeznsweet
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Posted by tianyi7886 on 2/3/2011 12:20:00 PM (view original):
Well, here is the result of the battle. I won but I actually outspent my opponent by almost $3000 with A+ prestige, vs C.

Him:

Date Description Cost 
2/2/2011 letters - (7) $105 
2/2/2011 home visit $315 
1/31/2011 declined scholarship offer $100 
1/31/2011 guaranteed minutes - (30) $10 
1/31/2011 guaranteed starting spot $10 
1/31/2011 home visits - (10) $3,150 
1/30/2011 Added to Watch List N/A 
1/30/2011 Added to Watch List N/A 
Total $3,690 

Me:
 
Date Description Cost
2/3/2011 home visits - (2) $610  
2/1/2011 scholarship offer $100  
2/1/2011 home visits - (2) $610  
2/1/2011 home visit $305  
2/1/2011 home visits - (3) $915  
1/31/2011 home visits - (2) $610  
1/31/2011 home visits - (3) $915  
1/31/2011 home visits - (5) $1,525  
1/30/2011 Added to Watch List N/A  
  Total $5,590

You were cleanly ahead the entire time in the recruits mind regardless of whether FSS was saying it was a toss-up.  There's a few good lessons here for people learning to recruit:  1) offer the scholly earlier to see how you're doing so you don't spend needlessly, 2) the scholly responses are a waaaaaay more precise judge of status than FSS, and 3) don't continue to spending to "close the deal" unless you think someone else may come in and poach late if they see an opening.  You spent at least $2000 too much which would be a nice $500 start toward next season's class.

2/3/2011 1:48 PM
gillispie
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Posted by cheeznsweet on 2/3/2011 1:48:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tianyi7886 on 2/3/2011 12:20:00 PM (view original):
Well, here is the result of the battle. I won but I actually outspent my opponent by almost $3000 with A+ prestige, vs C.

Him:

Date Description Cost 
2/2/2011 letters - (7) $105 
2/2/2011 home visit $315 
1/31/2011 declined scholarship offer $100 
1/31/2011 guaranteed minutes - (30) $10 
1/31/2011 guaranteed starting spot $10 
1/31/2011 home visits - (10) $3,150 
1/30/2011 Added to Watch List N/A 
1/30/2011 Added to Watch List N/A 
Total $3,690 

Me:
 
Date Description Cost
2/3/2011 home visits - (2) $610  
2/1/2011 scholarship offer $100  
2/1/2011 home visits - (2) $610  
2/1/2011 home visit $305  
2/1/2011 home visits - (3) $915  
1/31/2011 home visits - (2) $610  
1/31/2011 home visits - (3) $915  
1/31/2011 home visits - (5) $1,525  
1/30/2011 Added to Watch List N/A  
  Total $5,590

You were cleanly ahead the entire time in the recruits mind regardless of whether FSS was saying it was a toss-up.  There's a few good lessons here for people learning to recruit:  1) offer the scholly earlier to see how you're doing so you don't spend needlessly, 2) the scholly responses are a waaaaaay more precise judge of status than FSS, and 3) don't continue to spending to "close the deal" unless you think someone else may come in and poach late if they see an opening.  You spent at least $2000 too much which would be a nice $500 start toward next season's class.

totally agree on #1 and #2. but i would like to comment on #3.

it seems to me that if you are only a little ahead of a guy, there is a clear trade off between spending money and the risk of the other guy spending a lot to beat you for a recruit. early in my career, i lost a player i was winning, that i for sure had the budget to win, because the other coach was still being considered - and he put in like 5k in (d3) in 1 cycle, signing the player instantly. i was trying to save rollover, but really rollover is only 25%, and think about the chance that extra say 1k is going to win you a good player, compared to the chance of losing a good player now being eliminated by spending an extra 4k. you get similar tradeoffs in all divisions, and nowadays, i often will spend a little extra to safeguard.

i've also won a few recruits i could not possibly win in a long battle because the other coach was trying to save money. its a great strategy to dump a lot in in one cycle to try to surprise your opponent - who is likely thinking you have given up.
2/3/2011 1:57 PM
tianyi7886
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Idk about him leaning my way the entire time, because the other coach offered him a scholly late on 1/31 and he told him he's leaning towards him. 
2/3/2011 1:57 PM
tianyi7886
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My fear was the coach dumping alot of effort right before signing as well, because he locked up two low tier D3 players after seeing this guy was going to battle. And this guy was too good of a player to risk me not getting him. 
2/3/2011 2:00 PM
oldresorter
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Posted by jetwildcat on 2/3/2011 1:08:00 PM (view original):
 OR's 2x model just doesnt make sense to me, whether its linear or multiplicative (i'm not sure what he means)

for example

if D is our baseline (1x), D+ is 1.333x, C- is 1.667x, C is 2x

say you want to compare D+ to C-, you're talking about a ratio of C- = 1.25xD+. then C=1.2xC-. it just wouldnt make sense anymore.

if it truly goes up in a linear fashion, and A=4x while A-=3.667x, you're dealing with a difference of 1.09x. I REALLY find that difficult to believe, that the "average" A- is that close to the "average" A

if it's 2x and it's multiplicative, then it would be 1.26x each third of a grade (if D=1, D+=1.26, C-=1.59, C=2). this is also possible but it seems a little severe. I can think of at least a few instances where i've tried to bump off a D prestige sim with a B d1 team...if i had a 4x prestige advantage, there's no way i'd have had as much trouble.

despite popular opinion of a lot of successful coaches i'm not sippin the kool-aid here.
 I can't make out the math you are trying to express, and I am pretty lucid when it comes to math.

why would anyone lie to you or anyone about this - sippin the kool-aid? - I don't get what you are implying?

figuring out the real ratio in d1 is fairly easy due to how many sims recruit, I had even forgot how I did it the last time until I read this thread, I will verify the 2x, last time I checked, it was 2x for a full grade, 3x for two grades, 4x for three grades, but if someone told me it was 1.7, 2.4, and 3.1, it would not shock me either, too bad, I just got done recruiting in a world where I probably could have gotten an exact answer as I took on several sims, but another chance will come.  My gut says the 2x / 3x ratio was accurate, as I seem to recall I was considered and went ahead at almost the exact points I would have thought, but I really was not paying that much attention at the time to nail it to the dollar, or to the % in this case.

For anyone with the will to do so, just take out a sim competitor, do the math, after a few tries, the ratio should jump out at you too. 

I don't play much d2/d3, but I would have to prove to myself the ratio's are the reason for the difference and not the equality effect of promises, as there is just very little reason to program prestige different in d2/d3.   nor is it logical to program the effect of promises different, hence, since money is way different in d1 vs d3, prestige gets trumped by the fixed value of promises, but I am guessing at this, I will try to verify it for myself, although at one time, few if any played d3 better than I did, so I am not a complete dolt at d3 either.


2/3/2011 2:25 PM
jetwildcat
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i dont mean to imply anything with 'sippin the kool aid' i just mean i still have a different view of it.

i'll try again with the math stuff.

if D to B is 3x, and D to A is 4x, then mathematically B to A is 1.33x. that's basically it. i dont think this is the system.

if D to C is 2x, and C to B is 2x, AND B to A is 2x, then D to B is 4x and D to A is 8x. that makes less sense.


and yeah, there are too many unknown variables here to come to an exact conclusion here in a reasonable fashion. i have a model that i think works and has 'jumped out to me', but then again i only run with 3 teams so i dont have to test it very much. it just makes the most sense to me so i trust it.
2/3/2011 3:01 PM (edited)
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