While I DID post my findings on the issue regarding WR's Hands ratings not making much of a difference, I hope that didn't come off as taking a shot at Norbert.  In fact, I think Norbert is doing a GREAT job at keeping communication open and making sure we're up to date with "where things are" behind the scenes.  I think that's what most of us want. 

Hopefully most of you realize that while Norbert is the "face" of GD at the moment, he's not who got it to the point it's at now.  He's simply the guy that's stuck cleaning up this mess.  While I don't have any problem with people pointing out GD's issues at the moment, let's keep it civil and give Norbert some breathing room...he obviously cares about GD and wants to fix it.

I have nothing against Norbert.

I have everything against the engine and how it plays.

I don't even know Norbert, he didn't make this crap we're playing now, why would I hate him

Lol

Norbert:

I want to commend you for responding throughout this thread, when a lot of the posts weren't especially civil.  I'm a long time coach--started way back in season 2, and have played uninterrupted since then.  I've had a good share of success in this game--won championships at multiple levels, built several dynasties in previous versions of the game, but who like many veteran coaches has experienced some frustration with the apparent randomness of the current version of the game.  I have a couple of thoughts I want to bounce off of you.  Thanks in advance for considering my ideas.

First of all, like many [most?] coaches, I prefer the previous version of the game to the current one.  Not that the new one isn't enjoyable, or that it doesn't have certain features that aren't superior to previous iterations of the game, it is just that the recent updates had the dual impact of reducing the amount of game control coaches had while simultaneously introducing a bunch of new random variables that also--whether intentionally or not--diminish the impact of talent differential and game planning.

Did the previous version of the game have flaws?  Absolutely.  But the trap IMHO that JConte fell into was that every time he tried to correct something, every "fix" across the board not only proved to be an over-correction of the problem [some to the degree that they were actually reversed afterwards], they also resulted in a bunch of unintended consequences that created new problems, each of which in turn then required their own one-off solution, which started the cycle anew.  The "hands" dilemma discussed above ad nauseum is a perfect example of why making a more sophisticated formula for how play outcome gets calculated, but overlooks or demphasizes and equally important factor demonstrates why over-architecting the math behind the game engine might not be for the best.

In my mind, simplicity is the best approach.  Just in this thread alone, you've described some pretty sophisticated mathematical models for how play outcomes are determined.  And in an effort to emphasize certain modifiers [or deemphasize them, or reemphasize them in the case of "hands"], the complexity associated with how the game engine calculates things becomes more of a convoluted plate of spaghetti.  

One other thing about simplicity: I don't even know how a new coach would begin playing the game these days.  When I started playing, there was a lot of complexity even back then, and as new features were added, it just ratcheted up the complexity factor.  I had an advantage, because I was able to just view each new change as one more thing to account for and learn--but if I were a newbie, it would probably be a bit overwhelming to figure game play out, way more than it was a few years ago.

Another concern for me personally is how extensively dramatic the game engine changes have been in the past.  It is like having to learn an entirely new game every year and a half.  It is one thing to make an update, to patch something, or to modify a feature that isn't functioning as intended--but seeing so many complete revamps / reboots of the game suggests that in an effort to address problems, that the baby was thrown out with the bathwater.  And for many coaches / subscribers, that meant that enjoyable aspects of game play went by the wayside, all in the name of making the game more "realistic."  That's a noble intention, but I think that in the developers' zeal to revamp the game, they lost sight of what coaches preferences were, and imposed change on them.  Change is inevitable, but change merely for change sake is annoying, especially when the game has to be scrapped and reinvented every two years.  

It is clear from this thread that you have the best of intentions for the game.  My concern--based upon past experience and seeing how the deployment of major game enhancements has gone in the past--is that the game is getting further away from what many people used to enjoy about it.  It was FUN to take over mediocre teams, recruit yourself out of a hole, build depth / talent, and turn those teams into championship contenders.  Nowadays, it seems too random.  Recruiting the best talent or having  great game plans don't mean as much as they used to, which is something that personally I find to be demotivating.

This version of the game was designed to be more "realistic," but in fact I think that the opposite has occurred.  I'll grant you, the one thing that HAS gotten more realistic is the offensive statistics compared to real college football, but attaining that came at the expense of game play and the quality of the experience for many of the users.  I've seen a lot of great coaches--some of whom I knew personally, others who I respect and had rivalries with over the many years I've been playing GD--depart from the game in droves.  I know that this is just a game, so I don't want to be melodramatic about this, but that bothers me.  And as a developer, it should provide information to you about how the new game engine is perceived by your core fanbase.

I have a lot of specific suggestions [I realize that a lot of the above was pretty general], but I've already rambled long enough.  I've really enjoyed playing GD over the years, but I'm down to only having a handful of seasons left, and I'm not sure about whether I'm going to renew.  I'm concerned that the new changes will ultimately prove to be more of the same--a bunch of sweeping changes that introduce new game features, but which also result in increased complexity and a bunch of unintended new problems, to say nothing of having to try to start again from square one and figure out how this behemoth game works.  Your post on page 9, where you describe that JConte's changes implemented in version 2 didn't go as intended makes complete sense to me--because from a player / end user perspective, that's exactly how I experienced it.  I hope that you can avoid making the same mistake with the next update, and that you keep in mind my main point from above: simple is often better.

In any event, thanks for listening.  Feel free to reach out to me if you'd like me to clarify my positions on any of the above.

Ryan [aka Rdawg]

@rdawg - thanks for the feedback.  Can things go wrong with the update? Certainly.  But we're kind of stuck in a strange place where there are some problems with the current engine that just can't be fixed with a little nudging.  So we either live with what we have now or bite the bullet and make some changes.  One goal I have for this update is to try to keep it as close to the game we all know while improving the results.  As far as new users go, the one thing I hope this update can do is exactly what this thread is about - make the ratings matter where you would naturally think they would matter.  Hands are hands.  I don't have any false hopes of making it perfect right out of the gate, but it should be closer, and it should be at a point where things can be "nudged" to improve the game.  All the ratings will remain the same and I am doing my best to make the ratings that matter now, matter in the new engine.  You will still go after the same recruits you would go after now.

The one thing that is changing most from the user perspective is the game plan settings.  Even the changes to these should be familiar to anyone that has played the game and easy to pick up for those that haven't.  That reminds me, I should post something about the game plans. We have the offensive plans worked out, so I'll post something about those like I did for Position Roles.

Hi Norbert - I guess I will tack this onto the end of this thread..

I'm new to GD and love it.  I'm also really competitive and use all the tools available to make my team the best I can.

When you release the beta and the folks test it, one outcome of the beta should be an accurate (but perhaps somewhat veiled) description as to what the cores/secondaries are for each of the positions/roles.  I think what has upset many people regarding this HANDS fiasco (myself less so, as I haven't invested near the time many have) is that they were operating on a set of false assumptions.

Your "anatomy of a running play" really helped; I would ask that we enlist some folks using the beta to help write a new FAQ & coaching guide.

Then the GUESS reports could be more accurate, etc..

Thanks so much!

Posted by norbert on 6/19/2012 5:38:00 PM (view original):
@rdawg - thanks for the feedback.  Can things go wrong with the update? Certainly.  But we're kind of stuck in a strange place where there are some problems with the current engine that just can't be fixed with a little nudging.  So we either live with what we have now or bite the bullet and make some changes.  One goal I have for this update is to try to keep it as close to the game we all know while improving the results.  As far as new users go, the one thing I hope this update can do is exactly what this thread is about - make the ratings matter where you would naturally think they would matter.  Hands are hands.  I don't have any false hopes of making it perfect right out of the gate, but it should be closer, and it should be at a point where things can be "nudged" to improve the game.  All the ratings will remain the same and I am doing my best to make the ratings that matter now, matter in the new engine.  You will still go after the same recruits you would go after now.

The one thing that is changing most from the user perspective is the game plan settings.  Even the changes to these should be familiar to anyone that has played the game and easy to pick up for those that haven't.  That reminds me, I should post something about the game plans. We have the offensive plans worked out, so I'll post something about those like I did for Position Roles.

Thanks, @Norbert--appreciate the response.

Good luck!  I had a lot to say in the above post, and I hope that it didn't come across as whiny / preachy.  I've been playing this game for 80+seasons--I love GD.  Hence, my passion.