Mathewson won 225 more games that Radke. But let's keep in mind, pitching wins are irrelevant.

Thats because Radke had a ****** D in the steroid era. Duh.

If John McGraw understood productive outs in baseball, how come BL is confused?

BL is not confused. He just has a higher understanding of the game than mere mortals.

Posted by tecwrg on 10/15/2017 7:36:00 PM (view original):
BL is not confused. He just has a higher understanding of the game than mere mortals.

Thing is, it's really not that complicated. I agree with you that there are situations where an out in play is preferable to a strike out. You and I both know there are also situations where an out in play is not preferable to a strike out.

The point that you don't seem to grasp is that, when talking about a hitter's entire season or career, how he made his outs doesn't matter, assuming he avoided making outs at a good rate.

Posted by bad_luck on 10/15/2017 9:30:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 10/15/2017 7:36:00 PM (view original):
BL is not confused. He just has a higher understanding of the game than mere mortals.

Thing is, it's really not that complicated. I agree with you that there are situations where an out in play is preferable to a strike out. You and I both know there are also situations where an out in play is not preferable to a strike out.

The point that you don't seem to grasp is that, when talking about a hitter's entire season or career, how he made his outs doesn't matter, assuming he avoided making outs at a good rate.

"how he made his outs doesn't matter, assuming he avoided making outs at a good rate."

Strange. I was looking at this, and I count at least 15 of the top 20 or so players on this list as being Hall of Famers. Seems kind of productive to me.

Posted by bad_luck on 10/15/2017 9:30:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 10/15/2017 7:36:00 PM (view original):
BL is not confused. He just has a higher understanding of the game than mere mortals.

Thing is, it's really not that complicated. I agree with you that there are situations where an out in play is preferable to a strike out. You and I both know there are also situations where an out in play is not preferable to a strike out.

The point that you don't seem to grasp is that, when talking about a hitter's entire season or career, how he made his outs doesn't matter, assuming he avoided making outs at a good rate.

And the point that you don't seem to grasp is that individual games are not determined by player stats from over a season or a career, but by what actually happens on the field during those individual games. And quite often, how outs are made do indeed matter.

Let's look at it another way. In your opinion, when someone, for example, says something like, "Aaron Judge struck out too much this year," do you think they're saying:

A) Aaron Judge should strike out less and make more outs in play.

or are they saying:

B) Aaron Judge should make less outs.

Also, if Judge's 2017 season was exactly the same except all of his strikeouts are now pop-outs to third, did he have a better season?

while rarely a third strike is dropped and a player can get on, what you are assuming is that every pop up to third becomes an automatic out....

gust of wind, miscommunication between 3B and SS, drops.....in the circumstance you describe, putting the ball in play is better every time

I said pop-out. They are outs.

Posted by MikeT23 on 10/15/2017 7:33:00 AM (view original):

Posted by d_rock97 on 10/15/2017 12:58:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 10/15/2017 12:45:00 AM (view original):
I mean, I thought we covered this in one of the thousands of other threads on this topic. Obviously, there are situations where a ground out or fly out is better than a strikeout. And there are others where a ground out is worse than a strikeout.

But when you're looking at a player's season as a whole, how he made his outs really doesn't matter. How often he made them does.

Well when there’s 162+ games, the stats make it seem minute. But during the game, it really does matter.

I still think a strikeout is the worst type of out, regardless of situation, but I don’t wanna rehash this thing all over again.

I was just about to post something similar.

On the whole, over the course of a season, or seasons, how the out is made is pretty irrelevant. Which is what BL argues. Incessantly.
In a single game, or a single inning, how the outs are made can be pretty important. Which is what everyone else argues. To **** BL off.

Obviously, a triple and three whiffs is worse than a triple, sac fly, two whiffs. I don't think anyone would dispute this. Maybe BL will when he wakes up from sleepy time. Because he wants to earn PSBL.

It's really the difference between someone who watches baseball and someone who pours over stat sheets.

If BL would just say "I agree with this", everyone could STFU and watch the games.

Posted by bad_luck on 10/15/2017 12:37:00 AM (view original):
You can classify them by their relative value:

1) "good" outs (not actually good but relatively less bad)

2) neutral outs (again, bad, just not as bad as 3)

3) bad outs

Most outs fall into group 2. Strikeouts, every third out of every inning, pop ups, most line outs, all outs leading off an inning, some ground balls, some fly balls, etc.

Some outs fall into 1 - sac flies, "productive" outs, etc.

Some fall into 3, those are double plays.

When looked at on a team by team basis, 1 and 3 tend to balance out, the gain from 1 is wiped out by the bad from 3.

mike, maybe try reading?

Maybe you should try reading. No one gives a **** about your 1, 2, 3 over the course of a season/career. They matter in innings/games.

I mean, it’s like I said this within the posts you quoted:

“Obviously, there are situations where a ground out or fly out is better than a strikeout. And there are others where a ground out is worse than a strikeout.”