Posted by MikeT23 on 12/11/2017 4:26:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/11/2017 4:16:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/11/2017 2:09:00 PM (view original):
FWIW, we're just arguing to argue and I got bored a lot quicker than I thought.

Getting on base/preventing baserunners are the keys to baseball. I don't know if you agree but I know you love the walk. And the walk has little value beyond getting on base because he no longer controls his destiny. Much like NOT letting a runner get on removes him from controlling his destiny.

This really isn't that difficult. A hitter can only control his PA. He can make an out or not make an out but, other than a HR, whether or not he scores isn't really up to him.

For a pitcher, whether or not base runners score is, largely, up to them. It doesn't really matter how often Hunter allowed base runners if he still allowed runs at a league average rate. Having a low WHIP didn't help him...well, it probably helped him not allow runs at a worse than average rate...but whatever. Guys who were just mediocre at run prevention aren't Hall of Fame quality pitchers.

So why does a pitcher's BABIP Allowed have huge swings from season to season?

I feel like you're trying to get me to a specific answer. Why don't you just say what you mean?

Posted by bad_luck on 12/11/2017 4:30:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/11/2017 4:26:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/11/2017 4:16:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/11/2017 2:09:00 PM (view original):
FWIW, we're just arguing to argue and I got bored a lot quicker than I thought.

Getting on base/preventing baserunners are the keys to baseball. I don't know if you agree but I know you love the walk. And the walk has little value beyond getting on base because he no longer controls his destiny. Much like NOT letting a runner get on removes him from controlling his destiny.

This really isn't that difficult. A hitter can only control his PA. He can make an out or not make an out but, other than a HR, whether or not he scores isn't really up to him.

For a pitcher, whether or not base runners score is, largely, up to them. It doesn't really matter how often Hunter allowed base runners if he still allowed runs at a league average rate. Having a low WHIP didn't help him...well, it probably helped him not allow runs at a worse than average rate...but whatever. Guys who were just mediocre at run prevention aren't Hall of Fame quality pitchers.

So why does a pitcher's BABIP Allowed have huge swings from season to season?

I feel like you're trying to get me to a specific answer. Why don't you just say what you mean?

Sure. If whether or not base runners score is, largely, up to the pitcher, why does BABIP allowed have such huge swings year to year? Because, more than likely, runners score on hits(batted balls in play).

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/11/2017 4:39:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/11/2017 4:30:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/11/2017 4:26:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/11/2017 4:16:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/11/2017 2:09:00 PM (view original):
FWIW, we're just arguing to argue and I got bored a lot quicker than I thought.

Getting on base/preventing baserunners are the keys to baseball. I don't know if you agree but I know you love the walk. And the walk has little value beyond getting on base because he no longer controls his destiny. Much like NOT letting a runner get on removes him from controlling his destiny.

This really isn't that difficult. A hitter can only control his PA. He can make an out or not make an out but, other than a HR, whether or not he scores isn't really up to him.

For a pitcher, whether or not base runners score is, largely, up to them. It doesn't really matter how often Hunter allowed base runners if he still allowed runs at a league average rate. Having a low WHIP didn't help him...well, it probably helped him not allow runs at a worse than average rate...but whatever. Guys who were just mediocre at run prevention aren't Hall of Fame quality pitchers.

So why does a pitcher's BABIP Allowed have huge swings from season to season?

I feel like you're trying to get me to a specific answer. Why don't you just say what you mean?

Sure. If whether or not base runners score is, largely, up to the pitcher, why does BABIP allowed have such huge swings year to year? Because, more than likely, runners score on hits(batted balls in play).

Wouldn't the same thought process also apply to allowing hitters to reach base?

Are we doing the "answer every question with a question"? Because you asked me to be specific. I was.

OK, how about this, you're implying that factors outside the pitcher's control (fielding/luck) impact whether or not a run scores.

I'm saying that if that's true, then those factors also impact whether or not the pitcher allows hitters to reach base.

Therefore, if it wasn't Hunter's fault that runs scored at a rate of X, then it also wasn't his fault that he prevented base runners at a rate of Y.

Walks are part of the WHIP equation. They are not affected by luck or fielding. They are affected by throwing pitches in the strike zone.

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/11/2017 5:01:00 PM (view original):
Walks are part of the WHIP equation. They are not affected by luck or fielding. They are affected by throwing pitches in the strike zone.

Sure.

I guess we could consider whether or not Hunter allowed runs at an average rate because he was unlucky for his entire career. What was his career BABIP?

Oh, wait, it was .243.

He certainly wasn't unlucky.

Can we agree that a guy who didn't walk people, basically pitched to contact, could have this mindset?

"I always thought about completing games, starting games, eating up innings and trying to win games more importantly than anything else"

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/11/2017 5:11:00 PM (view original):
Can we agree that a guy who didn't walk people, basically pitched to contact, could have this mindset?

"I always thought about completing games, starting games, eating up innings and trying to win games more importantly than anything else"

And, in doing so, he allowed a lot of runs. Sorry. That makes him a less effective pitcher.

Posted by bad_luck on 12/11/2017 5:13:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/11/2017 5:11:00 PM (view original):
Can we agree that a guy who didn't walk people, basically pitched to contact, could have this mindset?

"I always thought about completing games, starting games, eating up innings and trying to win games more importantly than anything else"

And, in doing so, he allowed a lot of runs. Sorry. That makes him a less effective pitcher.

But "effectiveness" in baseball is WINNING. You don't really care if your pitcher goes 9 innings and gives up 5 runs, if the team has already scored 8. Sometimes his job isn't limiting "BABIP" or "ERA+". Sometimes (and this was more true in the 70's/80's than now) his job was to suck it up and throw a complete game to spare the bullpen.

That will never show up in the "new" stats.

Posted by bad_luck on 12/11/2017 5:13:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/11/2017 5:11:00 PM (view original):
Can we agree that a guy who didn't walk people, basically pitched to contact, could have this mindset?

"I always thought about completing games, starting games, eating up innings and trying to win games more importantly than anything else"

And, in doing so, he allowed a lot of runs. Sorry. That makes him a less effective pitcher.

And again, that's why you're considered the forum retard.

Zero understanding of context. Unable to think outside of your new-agey stat lined box.

Posted by bad_luck on 12/11/2017 5:13:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/11/2017 5:11:00 PM (view original):
Can we agree that a guy who didn't walk people, basically pitched to contact, could have this mindset?

"I always thought about completing games, starting games, eating up innings and trying to win games more importantly than anything else"

And, in doing so, he allowed a lot of runs. Sorry. That makes him a less effective pitcher.

The fact that you don't understand 70s baseball isn't surprising. You were still making poopee in your diapers.

The fact that you refuse to consider that pitcher's priorities might have been different is what makes you a retard. If a guy is looking to extend an outing, he's not going to nibble at the corners. He's going to throw strikes and hope the hitter makes a mistake. If they don't, he's giving up runs but, if he can throw 11 pitches instead of 23, he's just added an inning to his game.

Recently read "Living on the black". Followed Glavine and Mussina in 2007. While I know you hate wins as a measurement of pitching succees, that's all your boy Mussina could talk about. That was in 2007 not 1977. So while you may not value wins, pitchers do. Getting the win in a 7-5 game was, and might still be, FAR more important that making sure it was a 7-4 win.