Posted by topdogggbm on 11/4/2022 3:23:00 PM (view original):

Posted by doogan on 11/4/2022 3:17:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Carlos13842 on 11/4/2022 3:07:00 PM (view original):
Not that i am trying to defend anyone or anyone needs to be defended, but doogan doing it 14x over the past ten months with multiple teams / multiple worlds and 100+ users doing it 4-5x and that was seen as regular use doesn't seem like cheating to me.

It actually shows restraint that he didn't do it while knowing about it. My 2 cents.

But yeah, if I used it 14 times in the last 10 months that's like 600 APs I gained from it across like 6 or 7 HD seasons? As compared to the extra 500 APs and $3k you get from redshirting a senior.

Comparing the Sr redshirt comment is NOT fair, or equal. They’re different scenarios

You're not sacrificing a season with the Sr. Redshirt, you're just delaying his senior year until the next year. And usually a senior is fully developed anyway, so the drop in work ethic doesn't really matter. Of courses they're different scenarios. But I just laid out for you how over the last 6 or 7 seasons my gain from the Inform of Redshirt was about 600 APs. In just ONE season of redshirting a senior you are gaining like 500 APs and $3k in cash. They are different. You could argue that Inform of Redshirt is more beneficial. But they are in a similar realm in terms of impact.

With Doogan being the LEAST of the perpetrators, He’s “2nd on my ok list”. But the gap between robinhood and Doogan is still wide, based off lack of understanding of the situation.

however, it sucks for him that it wasn’t a big number IN COMPARISON TO THE OTHERS (only). So I feel for him in that way. But all it’s the mindset that leads the way in my opinion

I'm guessing that you guys disagree.

The situation is divisive enough without it becoming a cancer.

Consider disengaging...

“Hello, I’m referee GoMiami. In the red(shirt) corner….. and in the blue(s) corner we have….”

Posted by topdogggbm on 11/4/2022 3:57:00 PM (view original):
“Hello, I’m referee GoMiami. In the red(shirt) corner….. and in the blue(s) corner we have….”

lol, but my delivery would be more like that wrestling dude...I forget his name...

Posted by baseball4309 on 11/3/2022 5:58:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cimmy426 on 11/3/2022 5:43:00 PM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 11/3/2022 5:02:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie on 11/3/2022 3:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 11/3/2022 3:49:00 PM (view original):
I think robinhood410 has made me feel great about the circumstances with his words. I’m all for him returning. Based off what I see in the discord. But I feel like cimmy is still combative and I’m not as much on board with him as I am Robinhood. I know they are of the same bunch. But they are reacting totally different to the situation. And that’s fine.

just throwing my thoughts out there

people tend not to react well to being called a cheater, yelled at, berated, etc... i know you and i don't see eye to eye on this, but i have found more success personally winning hearts and minds with calm discourse than confrontation.

i agree that this situation here was too serious to handle offline between coaches, without involving CS. i'm not saying we should have done that here, at all. but one should only expect a cimmy-style reaction to come with the territory. i suspect he will come around some in time, when emotions have cooled. that is one more problem with the pitchfork style you encourage. it doesn't give time for emotions to cool and for heads to level.

If you don’t think I’m being more fair then I normally am, you’re not reading. You’re right that you and I don’t see eye to eye on a lot of things (but honestly that’s more for the show than anything). I’m being VERY open minded about this. I put myself in their shoes……
1) i get ****** back at first
2) I think about it a bit more
3) I listen
4) I view what dozens of others had to say
5) I make a judgement.

in this case I’d feel like, ok I get it. I see why the community is mad. I’d like to apologize, explain, and ask for forgiveness somewhat. Do I owe that to anyone? Of course not. But you guys are my gaming peers and you’re throwing fire at me. I now see why.

next step is to let others know that I get it.

cimmy is not on that at all. He’s still being defensive. So is the entire community wrong? Is CS wrong? Or is 2-5 people wrong? You tell me. From there, if one doesn’t know what to do and how to act, I don’t know what to tell ya.

if a Top-style answer comes with a pitchfork as some of you say, the fact that I can say ‘my bad’ guys if I screw up, should hold a LOT of weight with the community. Be human. Admit wrong. Move forward. Doogan’s post about ‘I disagree it was a big advantage’. Get real. We’ve documented 1000 reasons why it IS compared to his ONE that it isn’t. OWN UP, and it all ends. But the problem is, those who don’t, can’t fake it. They really can’t grasp why it’s an issue. And that’s fine. But they won’t get much love from us if they feel that way

Would you admit wrong if you didn't feel like you were wrong? I honestly don't think robinhood thinks it was wrong either, but he's a people pleaser, and the mob needs a sacrifice, so he's ready and willing. All 3 of us have truly been very open and honest with our statements about all of this, even as the accusations drifted from hacking the website for unlimited APs to being the same people to hiding that we know each other to colluding and hiding secrets from people to whatever the other outlandish things were. If you choose not to believe us, that's obviously your prerogative. If you choose to believe us and disagree, that's cool too. If you want to hate us and/or attribute all of our successes at this game to this one thing, go ahead. It's just wild how this whole thing went down.

Thanks for clarifying that robinhoods “apology” was not genuine. That was certainly my suspicion.

Wow, you guys really assume the worst intentions at every opportunity, don't you. In no way was I implying my brother was lying or that he's not genuine. He's extremely genuine and he's a real nice guy, and because of that, just because he had a more magnanimous approach to the situation than me or doogan in no way says to me that he thought what he was doing was cheating. He's a man of high integrity, so it would be surprising to me if he did think he was cheating and kept doing it.

On one hand. What you guys were told was
”Hey, not many people know about this recruiting action that you guys are using, the one that you let us know about. The whole community is mad that they didn’t know and they even think that that makes it cheating, so we’re going to have to kick you guys out. And make sure you apologize!”

So I see how that would be tough,

on the other hand, A LOT of your opponents moved their sights towards lesser backup options during this process, and that made their teams a little less thin, which then probably affected their credits as well as the ripple down affect all the way to probably D3 from not knowing they also had the opportunity to get guys to sign without AP.

So I (can’t speak for them) think they just want you to acknowledge that you guys aren’t the only ones getting screwed. I get that it’s a tough position, and I don’t think you guys made a mistake or should have to apologize for anything, but from what I gather is they understandably want you to admit that they got screwed over too. Everybody got screwed over.

edit: with the acknowledgement thing, I’m thinking about what maybe the people in the middle like Top and Benis who also got screwed over might be thinking about all of this. I know there are probably people out there who won’t admit that you guys who got your accounts reset got screwed over too.

But no kidding. Everyone has been assuming the worst since the beginning. That there was cheating going on. Even still after its come to light that you just used a (funky) recruiting action. I don’t think people realize how simple of a recruiting action you used was. It’s an unfortunate situation for everyone involved honestly.

Posted by zemedlin on 11/4/2022 4:34:00 PM (view original):
On one hand. What you guys were told was
”Hey, not many people know about this recruiting action that you guys are using, the one that you let us know about. The whole community is mad that they didn’t know and they even think that that makes it cheating, so we’re going to have to kick you guys out. And make sure you apologize!”

So I see how that would be tough,

on the other hand, A LOT of your opponents moved their sights towards lesser backup options during this process, and that made their teams a little less thin, which then probably affected their credits as well as the ripple down affect all the way to probably D3 from not knowing they also had the opportunity to get guys to sign without AP.

So I (can’t speak for them) think they just want you to acknowledge that you guys aren’t the only ones getting screwed. I get that it’s a tough position, and I don’t think you guys made a mistake or should have to apologize for anything, but from what I gather is they understandably want you to admit that they got screwed over too. Everybody got screwed over.

edit: with the acknowledgement thing, I’m thinking about what maybe the people in the middle like Top and Benis who also got screwed over might be thinking about all of this. I know there are probably people out there who won’t admit that you guys who got your accounts reset got screwed over too.

Some people lost recruits that they otherwise would have gotten had this Inform of No Redshirt thing not provided us the recruiting credit that it did. Fact.

Word. Thanks. Now maybe the other side will acknowledge that you guys got your accounts reset for using a recruiting action.

i’d like to think I’m helping bridge a divide between the two sides but I apologize if I am not

Yea, again, I was just specifically addressing doogan’s involvement - because the amount of recruits and users he was screwing was only 10 more than the other 100+ users that made the same recruiting functionality. Again not egregious in my book.

And it obv had 0 impact on any user not in his world / not in his recruiting range. Like me. So I don’t and can’t speak for those that did feel some pain but again - I don’t think the punishment fits the crime in his case.

sadly I think we are losing a great coach and another user in this awesome community. (Which is happening more and more)

Ok. It's very rare for me to read the forums (shame on me I guess), and never comment on here, but after reading (watching the tennis ball go back and forth the last several days) I felt the need, unfortunately for some, to put my two cents in. First of all this, in my mind was a fun game that takes away some of the BS in the real world. I'm definitely sure its naive for me to think that HD would be any different and somehow without shenanigans. However, I truly was under the impression we were all playing with the same published/understood rules and it was up to me/you all to figure out the nuances of the game, be it with a mentor or by reading the HD player guides. Not by either looking for or stumbling into loopholes that can be exploited. I've been playing HD since 2015 and while I feel like I'm still a newby searching for my first NC, this uncovered aspect of HD I find extremely frustrating to learn about. For example, because of this current Recruiting "exploit" investigation, I am now just learning about the "International recruit RS" loophole, the "SR RS" loophole, and now the "RS not RS" loophole. How many more am I missing? Sounds like probably a few.......Many of the coaches on here claim everyone knew about these, but I had no clue. I have no doubt some would say, shame on me for not pushing the envelop to find an upper hand. Perhaps that is true.......but that's not why I'm playing HD and not part of my DNA. What made this game fun, in my mind, was competing with you all using the same rules, getting our teeth bashed in while we learn core attributes and how offense and defenses compare, and work your way to the top.
This sucks and is truly disappointing to find out I've been competing all along against a few who know how to work the system or loophole their way thru each season. I only know one of the banished coaches, from being in the same DII conference with him for many, many seasons. He is an excellent coach and conference mate. Was always friendly and helpful. I never suspected anything shady from him. And I'm very disappointed to know he was apart of whatever this is. This whole thing stinks, for everyone involved in HD. I guess I was under the impression we were all innocently trying to do our best within the rules........the rules everyone is equally aware of. In this case evidently nobody but the 5 or 6 guys doing it new about it. Just be transparent with us all next time you open pandoras box so we can all compete without a distinct unfair advantage. No matter how small or great the advantage may be. I hope these guys make a come back. I'm disappointed because I feel "hornswoggled" so to speak (probably not by cheating but deception or lack of transparency). What ever it is, doesn't seem right. That's all.

Ps: i wish we would handle these scandals in a sliding scale of losing the ability to get D1/2 recruits for 4-6 seasons or something and just put asterisks next to the championships and wins with a note of the scandal / investigation.

that way they can’t compete for a few years and have to play with d3 recruits - face pressure of getting fired - etc. still fun, still allows “revenge” for those recruiting against them for 15-20 seasons etc.

versus stripping everything - but that’s just me

Posted by Crawdaddy44 on 11/4/2022 5:07:00 PM (view original):
Ok. It's very rare for me to read the forums (shame on me I guess), and never comment on here, but after reading (watching the tennis ball go back and forth the last several days) I felt the need, unfortunately for some, to put my two cents in. First of all this, in my mind was a fun game that takes away some of the BS in the real world. I'm definitely sure its naive for me to think that HD would be any different and somehow without shenanigans. However, I truly was under the impression we were all playing with the same published/understood rules and it was up to me/you all to figure out the nuances of the game, be it with a mentor or by reading the HD player guides. Not by either looking for or stumbling into loopholes that can be exploited. I've been playing HD since 2015 and while I feel like I'm still a newby searching for my first NC, this uncovered aspect of HD I find extremely frustrating to learn about. For example, because of this current Recruiting "exploit" investigation, I am now just learning about the "International recruit RS" loophole, the "SR RS" loophole, and now the "RS not RS" loophole. How many more am I missing? Sounds like probably a few.......Many of the coaches on here claim everyone knew about these, but I had no clue. I have no doubt some would say, shame on me for not pushing the envelop to find an upper hand. Perhaps that is true.......but that's not why I'm playing HD and not part of my DNA. What made this game fun, in my mind, was competing with you all using the same rules, getting our teeth bashed in while we learn core attributes and how offense and defenses compare, and work your way to the top.
This sucks and is truly disappointing to find out I've been competing all along against a few who know how to work the system or loophole their way thru each season. I only know one of the banished coaches, from being in the same DII conference with him for many, many seasons. He is an excellent coach and conference mate. Was always friendly and helpful. I never suspected anything shady from him. And I'm very disappointed to know he was apart of whatever this is. This whole thing stinks, for everyone involved in HD. I guess I was under the impression we were all innocently trying to do our best within the rules........the rules everyone is equally aware of. In this case evidently nobody but the 5 or 6 guys doing it new about it. Just be transparent with us all next time you open pandoras box so we can all compete without a distinct unfair advantage. No matter how small or great the advantage may be. I hope these guys make a come back. I'm disappointed because I feel "hornswoggled" so to speak (probably not by cheating but deception or lack of transparency). What ever it is, doesn't seem right. That's all.

That's a totally fair reaction crawdaddy. I've only asked that this one thing be treated the same way as these other aspects of the game that aren't all that obvious or intuitive, that are known to the community to varying degrees. The most widely known was probably that you weren't held to promises made to ineligible recruits until recently. WIS fixed that and notified everyone, but nobody was called a cheater. I guarantee the vast majority of the people out here throwing stones have benefitted from promises to ineligibles, or redshirting a senior, or some other "trick" that isn't "published" as part of the rules of the game. But it appears the only difference between those things and this nonredshirt thing is that apparently less people realized it. I didn't know how many people realized it until CS posted their findings (I would have guessed a lot more). In fact, and this point has been made many times over, informing a player you won't redshirt him providing recruiting benefit makes a whole lot more sense from a game design perspective than any of these other things, so while it wasn't what I originally expected, it wasn't that hard to believe it was part of the game after I asked CS about it and they told me that the inform of nonredshirt does provide positive recruiting effort.

edited for grammar

Posted by cimmy426 on 11/4/2022 5:39:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Crawdaddy44 on 11/4/2022 5:07:00 PM (view original):
Ok. It's very rare for me to read the forums (shame on me I guess), and never comment on here, but after reading (watching the tennis ball go back and forth the last several days) I felt the need, unfortunately for some, to put my two cents in. First of all this, in my mind was a fun game that takes away some of the BS in the real world. I'm definitely sure its naive for me to think that HD would be any different and somehow without shenanigans. However, I truly was under the impression we were all playing with the same published/understood rules and it was up to me/you all to figure out the nuances of the game, be it with a mentor or by reading the HD player guides. Not by either looking for or stumbling into loopholes that can be exploited. I've been playing HD since 2015 and while I feel like I'm still a newby searching for my first NC, this uncovered aspect of HD I find extremely frustrating to learn about. For example, because of this current Recruiting "exploit" investigation, I am now just learning about the "International recruit RS" loophole, the "SR RS" loophole, and now the "RS not RS" loophole. How many more am I missing? Sounds like probably a few.......Many of the coaches on here claim everyone knew about these, but I had no clue. I have no doubt some would say, shame on me for not pushing the envelop to find an upper hand. Perhaps that is true.......but that's not why I'm playing HD and not part of my DNA. What made this game fun, in my mind, was competing with you all using the same rules, getting our teeth bashed in while we learn core attributes and how offense and defenses compare, and work your way to the top.
This sucks and is truly disappointing to find out I've been competing all along against a few who know how to work the system or loophole their way thru each season. I only know one of the banished coaches, from being in the same DII conference with him for many, many seasons. He is an excellent coach and conference mate. Was always friendly and helpful. I never suspected anything shady from him. And I'm very disappointed to know he was apart of whatever this is. This whole thing stinks, for everyone involved in HD. I guess I was under the impression we were all innocently trying to do our best within the rules........the rules everyone is equally aware of. In this case evidently nobody but the 5 or 6 guys doing it new about it. Just be transparent with us all next time you open pandoras box so we can all compete without a distinct unfair advantage. No matter how small or great the advantage may be. I hope these guys make a come back. I'm disappointed because I feel "hornswoggled" so to speak (probably not by cheating but deception or lack of transparency). What ever it is, doesn't seem right. That's all.

That's a totally fair reaction crawdaddy. I've only asked that this one thing be treated the same way as these other aspects of the game that aren't all that obvious or intuitive, that are known to the community to varying degrees. The most widely known was probably that you weren't held to promises made to ineligible recruits until recently. WIS fixed that and notified everyone, but nobody was called a cheater. I guarantee the vast majority of the people out here throwing stones have benefitted from promises to ineligibles, or redshirting a senior, or some other "trick" that isn't "published" as part of the rules of the game. But it appears the only difference between those things and this nonredshirt thing is that apparently less people realized it. I didn't know how many people realized it until CS posted their findings (I would have guessed a lot more). In fact, and this point has been made many times over, informing a player you won't redshirt him providing recruiting benefit makes a whole lot more sense from a game design perspective than any of these other things, so while it wasn't what I originally expected, it wasn't that hard to believe it was part of the game after I asked CS about it and they told me that the inform of nonredshirt does provide positive recruiting effort.

edited for grammar

I never redshirted a senior or made a promise to an ineligible. Am I allowed to call you a cheater? Because you are one.