** New Fatigue ** Topic

schwarze
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I'm just getting back into basketball. I've tried to read everything in this entire thread, but it's not been easy.
Let me make sure I understand...
(1) Fatigue is based solely on total minutes (pro-rated to 82 games). Games played is meaningless (unlike in baseball). A player who played 35 min/game in real life but got hurt and only played in 50 games (1750 minutes) can play approx. 21 minutes per game in all 82 sim games w/o fatigue issues? Is this correct?
(2) Overtime games are not going to adversely affect a player's fatigue other than how it affects his projected 82-game pace. What about early in the season? I would hope that the fatigue issues don't start taking effect until 5 or 6 games have been played. (I always hated how when baseball had an extra inning game in game #1, how everybody was pretty much dead).
(3) Injuries are random and are directly proportional to minutes overuse and not games overuse, correct?
4/28/2006 9:33 AM
seble
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Quote: Originally posted by accel on 4/28/2006Since the new fatigue is going to be based entirely on sim minutes vs. RL, how is leeway going to be given early in the season? How many games qualifies as 'early season'? Will fatigue just gradually start becoming more apparent as the season progresses? Will pushing your players early have ramifications later on? If there are no ill effects to pushing players early, it seems to me that this will just lead to users 'pushing' the number of games that they can over-play their minutes (which, to a lesser degree, resembles the current problem of pushing total minutes).
It will gradually become more apparent over the first 10 games or so, after which it will be fully in effect. You might be able to push players a little more early in the season, but since we look at total minutes, it will hurt you later if you do that.
4/28/2006 9:40 AM
seble
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This post could not be converted. To view the original post's thread, click here.
4/28/2006 9:42 AM
seble
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Sorry about the formatting there.
4/28/2006 9:43 AM
e-monk
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so if injuries are directly proportional to minutes overuse
and
I have a 8.9 mpg player like Randy Wittman fatiguing when he averages 9mpg
and in your email to me you expressed a cavalier attitude re "it's just a few minutes here and there" (see also: "it's just one game" as if most of us don't measure results game by game)
so I can't expect better controls on my minutes distro than I have now
and you are tightening the screws yet again on fatigue
this will make your product more enjoyable how?
4/28/2006 10:33 AM
seble
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Quote: Originally Posted By e-monk on 4/28/2006

so if injuries are directly proportional to minutes overuse
and
I have a 8.9 mpg player like Randy Wittman fatiguing when he averages 9mpg
9 mpg for an 8.9 mpg player would result in no fatigue. And even if he's at 95% or something, you probably won't notice a huge dropoff in performance for the limited minutes he's in the game.
and in your email to me you expressed a cavalier attitude re "it's just a few minutes here and there" (see also: "it's just one game" as if most of us don't measure results game by game)
I don't think being rational and reasonable is cavalier
so I can't expect better controls on my minutes distro than I have now
There's only so much we can do to hit minute targets. Unless we implement hockey-like live substitutions then the flow of the game can affect minutes.
and you are tightening the screws yet again on fatigue
Again? Fatigue hasn't changed in years.
this will make your product more enjoyable how?
Because it will make things fair since you will need to draft a reasonable number of minutes to avoid fatigue penalties.
4/28/2006 10:51 AM
schwarze
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Since there is no "padding" built in to the fatigue formula, then it seems that it will be necessary to draft more than 19,680 minutes (82*48*5). For one, you need to be able to cover the OT minutes. And secondly, you need a little extra for those times where a player goes over his set minutes b/c of mitigating circumstances (foul trouble, etc). Because if somebody gets hurt, then you could have a snowball effect.
4/28/2006 10:54 AM
e-monk
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fair? fair is the same rules apply to all
as they do now
you are talking aesthetics when you are talking about minutes usage - everyone can do the same thing now if they choose - there are no constraints on them so? how are you making it MORE fair
as for Wittman- check your facts on the 'no fatigue' bit because currently it does
4/28/2006 10:55 AM
seble
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Probably won't hurt to have a few extra minutes. There is a little bit of padding, but not a lot.
4/28/2006 10:55 AM
schwarze
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Maybe a benchmark of 20,000 minutes. That allows roughly 13 overtime periods.
4/28/2006 10:57 AM
seble
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Quote: Originally Posted By e-monk on 4/28/2006
fair? fair is the same rules apply to all
as they do now
you are talking aesthetics when you are talking about minutes usage - everyone can do the same thing now if they choose - there are no constraints on them so? how are you making it MORE fair
as for Wittman- check your facts on the 'no fatigue' bit because currently it does
It's more fair because a new user would assume (and be advised) that they need a realistic number of minutes to compete. In the current system they would lose to the experienced owners who know how to skimp on minutes. Then they'd probably get frustrated and quit.

I was applying our new fatigue formula to the Wittman example, which I assumed is what you meant.
4/28/2006 10:57 AM
devizier
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I think improving the fatigue system is very much so fair; its like improving the umpiring in baseball. Sure, if you do your research on the umpires (like Curt Schilling) you can take advantage of the system, but the fact is, the umpiring should be consistent. It should be fair to all. You shouldn't have to study their proclivities to take advantage of them. And coincidentally, Schilling was the one who ******* most about the potential for Questec.
4/28/2006 1:17 PM
accel
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Agreed devizier. I haven't played a whole lot, but when I first got into the league I'm currently in, I expected most of the teams w/ fewer than 19000 minutes to be struggling. Since WIS recommends 4000 min per position, that's what I was going with. It's really lame that an oscar robertson who played for 60 games can get injured once during the regular season for 4 games and then continue to play nearly 40 min a night. There should be substantial risk involved when you overplay a player. The new fatigue rules help that.

With regards to the posts on the previous pages concerned about overtime minutes, didn't seble say in the first post of this thread that overtime wasn't going to decimate you?
4/28/2006 2:24 PM
seble
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Overtime shouldn't be a huge factor considering it's only 5 extra minutes. Conceivably, if you're right up against the wall on minutes, then it might add up if you run into a large number of overtime games. But it shouldn't have a one-game extreme effect like the current system.
4/28/2006 2:34 PM
mamxet
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it has been a year or more since I played in the NBA SIM and it is comforting to see that there have been improvements but the core of the activity - and the forum debates - remain so much the same.....got one team over that I have been thinking of using.....must work on it during a week when there is no HD recruiting underway!
5/22/2006 10:52 PM
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