** New Fatigue ** Topic

all3
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Again, that's an excellent change. I'm so sick of seeing partial season players, playing their full minutes in the playoffs. The owner didn't pay to have that player available for that many minutes in every game.
4/21/2006 6:18 PM
ashleyscott
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Quote: Originally Posted By all3 on 4/21/2006

Again, that's an excellent change. I'm so sick of seeing partial season players, playing their full minutes in the playoffs. The owner didn't pay to have that player available for that many minutes in every game.
Actually, the owner did. Using the Wilt example, the owner drafted a player that can play 40+ minutes per game. He didn't draft a player that would play all 82 games, however.

I argued against the total minutes idea back in 2003. But many owners wanted to "stretch" those minutes. I was already using "partial season" teams prior to the sim changes. I had injuries with players missing games and right but I managed to win one ring and 50 games with such a team. I "platooned" three positions (e.g. had around 5 partial season players) on the team so I still had full-season players at two of the positions, to fit under the cap.

With the total minute change, these same partial season teams no longer had injuries. The salary changes at the time also made it possible to draft more partial season players per team as well. Prior to the salary changes, it was only possible to draft 4 or 5 high quality partial season players instead of 12 after the salary change.

3 years later ... we will be drafting a 40 mpg player that can't play 40 mpg in the sim without getting fatigued.

4/22/2006 8:05 AM
ashleyscott
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I think player-seasons should have a flag for 'starters' where a 'starter' means that the player can play 2~3 minutes more per game in the PLAYOFFS without getting fatigued.
In the real world, starters play more minutes per game in the playoffs than in the regular season.
Now what the 2~3 minute boost would do is ... a 75 gp, 35 mpg player who played only at 32 mpg in the regular sim season would be bumped back up to 35 mpg in the playoff sim season. That same bump would largely be insignificant for the Wilt used in previous examples.
4/22/2006 8:23 AM
jakotay
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Quote: Originally Posted By ashleyscott on 4/22/2006

I think player-seasons should have a flag for 'starters' where a 'starter' means that the player can play 2~3 minutes more per game in the PLAYOFFS without getting fatigued.
In the real world, starters play more minutes per game in the playoffs than in the regular season.
Now what the 2~3 minute boost would do is ... a 75 gp, 35 mpg player who played only at 32 mpg in the regular sim season would be bumped back up to 35 mpg in the playoff sim season. That same bump would largely be insignificant for the Wilt used in previous examples.
I would agree that starters could/would/should typically play a couple extra minutes in playoff games, but I disagree with putting a subjective flag on who would qualify. Until minutes have a cost value similar to all other input used by the sim this can wait.

The cost of an assist is based on sim output...so are boards, TO's, blocks.... everything. Except minutes. The cost value of a minute played is still based on IRL total and the sim allows extra already. I can't see adding to that even more (in the playoffs or otherwise). Eventually, 17,000 drafted minutes will be the benchmark for team composition.
I think after the fatigue logic upgrade and defensive match-up logic is done that the cost value of a minute needs to be addressed to reflect the value it has in the sim.
4/22/2006 12:50 PM
wontaek
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I believe it would be better to reintroduce number of game played into calculating probability of injury occurence. If total minute played and number of game played has equal weight on determining the injury probability, it will help reduce the use of partial season players and still allow owners to gamble with injury early in the season if they choose.
4/22/2006 8:53 PM
qistat
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Ashley-
If you want to sit that wilt one game and play him 40 mins the next he wont get fatigued. So it is not accurate to say he can't play 40 mins.
4/22/2006 9:14 PM
all3
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Quote: Originally Posted By qistat on 4/22/2006
Ashley-
If you want to sit that wilt one game and play him 40 mins the next he wont get fatigued. So it is not accurate to say he can't play 40 mins.
40 minutes every other game, or 20 minutes each game - exactly what was paid for. I do like the thought of factoring in games played too. Perhaps some sort of % of IRL games, regardless of minutes. If you don't use all the minutes in the allowable games, that's your fault. For example, let's set the max at 150% of IRL games. If he's a 30 minute per game player, who plays 40 games, then he could only play a max of 60 games. You could play him 20 MPG for those 60. Add a bit of strategy to handling partial season players. It doesn't seem right that a 40 game IRL player can appear in 82 SIM games. Since since salary is based on minutes, not games, you should get the full use of them.
4/23/2006 12:20 AM
billyho1515
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Hey guys- I've been out of the NBA scene for a while but I got a question about this because I am looking to get back into it....
I see everyone keep talking about total minutes, but I have this question (having been playing baseball lately and this rule is applied there):
If Player X averaged 40 MPG but only played 41 of 82 games...
does that mean he can go 20 MPG for all 82 games? cuz in the baseball sim if a pitcher went 8 IP/G but only pitched 5 games...he is not capable of pitching 1 IP/G for 40 games.
Sorry for the baseball analogy, I'm sure no one cares, but I am just trying to understand.
4/23/2006 1:40 AM
wontaek
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4/23/2006 3:09 AM
ashleyscott
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Quote: Originally Posted By qistat on 4/22/2006
Ashley-
If you want to sit that wilt one game and play him 40 mins the next he wont get fatigued. So it is not accurate to say he can't play 40 mins.


Then this wouldn't address the concern that all3 mentioned -- players playing 'full minutes' in the playoffs without fatigue or injury.

Under this new scenario, I could play the 1700 minute wilt just 15 mpg for 70 games deliberately (1050 mins). Then come playoff time, I have Wilt play 40 mpg. This is actually no different from the old scenario.

4/23/2006 7:47 AM
jweb1510
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4/23/2006 9:09 AM
all3
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Quote: Originally Posted By ashleyscott on 4/23/2006
Quote: Originally Posted By qistat on 4/22/2006

Ashley-
If you want to sit that wilt one game and play him 40 mins the next he wont get fatigued. So it is not accurate to say he can't play 40 mins.


Then this wouldn't address the concern that all3 mentioned -- players playing 'full minutes' in the playoffs without fatigue or injury.

Under this new scenario, I could play the 1700 minute wilt just 15 mpg for 70 games deliberately (1050 mins). Then come playoff time, I have Wilt play 40 mpg. This is actually no different from the old scenario.



You still couldn't have him play 40 mpg every game in the playoffs. 3 out of 4, but not every. In response to the earlier post relating this to baseball, I would LOVE to see a similar system in place.
4/23/2006 12:06 PM
qistat
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Quote: Originally Posted By ashleyscott on 4/23/2006
Quote: Originally Posted By qistat on 4/22/2006

Ashley-
If you want to sit that wilt one game and play him 40 mins the next he wont get fatigued. So it is not accurate to say he can't play 40 mins.


Then this wouldn't address the concern that all3 mentioned -- players playing 'full minutes' in the playoffs without fatigue or injury.

Under this new scenario, I could play the 1700 minute wilt just 15 mpg for 70 games deliberately (1050 mins). Then come playoff time, I have Wilt play 40 mpg. This is actually no different from the old scenario.



Ok, but that's a completely different point. So why qoute me?
4/23/2006 12:26 PM
billyho1515
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Quote: Originally Posted By all3 on 4/23/2006
You still couldn't have him play 40 mpg every game in the playoffs. 3 out of 4, but not every. In response to the earlier post relating this to baseball, I would LOVE to see a similar system in place.
I take it this means it is not in place and minutes can be used as you please?
4/23/2006 1:06 PM
wontaek
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One of the stats we have is number of game a player played and the number of games in a season. Another way to say it would be percentage of the season the player participated. We have this stat. I say wwe should use it. Under fatigue and injury from total minute only scenario, we have interesting problems with few rare players that played 83 or more games in a season as it is now possible to deliberately overplay them beyond their mpg number without worrying about fatigue
4/23/2006 7:46 PM
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