Possession Penalty, Where is it? Topic

Quote: Originally posted by badja on 7/24/2008
Quote: Originally posted by qistat on 7/23/2008 You have done the new sim release a favor by identifying a glitch early on in the process.
and in turn has been screwed out of his $$ because WIS did not properly test the new release.



Actually, he didn't lose anything. The new 'release' doesn't affect his team at all.
7/24/2008 5:29 PM
Ashley, the correction to possesion penalty has not yet been enabled. There is no doubt that his team (Abrondons) will be greatly affected if the correction is enabled before his season finishes.
7/24/2008 5:57 PM
07/22/2008


* Fixed an issue in the SimEngine where lineups with low possessions were not getting properly penalized.

This is what I am referencing. I think it would affect his team.
7/24/2008 6:20 PM
Quote: Originally posted by qistat on 7/24/2008Ashley, the correction to possesion penalty has not yet been enabled. There is no doubt that his team (Abrondons) will be greatly affected if the correction is enabled before his season finishes.

The penalty has been in effect for 2 days or 5 games. His team is not affected much at all.

There appears to be a slight drop (if one would believe 5 games being sufficient sample) in FG%. It looks like his team averaged around 55 to 56% in those 5 games, dropping his overall season's rate by a 0.1 or so. His overall TOs per game actually improved in those 5 games.

Since it's only 5 games, I don't think it was enabled at all for that league. If it was enabled for his league, then my original assessment stands.

On the other hand, my team dropped from being a 59% shooting team (after 7 games) to a sub 45% shooting team overnight, breaking the 45% barrier once by hitting 48%. Overall, it is around 53% after 12 games.

If it wasn't for Wilt Chamberlain, the team would be a sub 40% shooting team in its last 5 games.




7/24/2008 7:26 PM
Thanks for the clarification - I didn't know it had been put into play for some leagues already. Based on your report it sounds like it is being held back for Abrondons league.
7/24/2008 9:34 PM
Quote: Actually, he didn't lose anything. The new 'release' doesn't affect his team at all.

Then the rest of his league is getting screwed? Did this mistake affect only 2 leagues, or every league?

Either way, the SIM was not tested thoroughly and that's my gripe.
7/24/2008 11:23 PM
word - they didnt even bother to sanity check the offensive ranges, defensive ratings, or guestimated RBD% of the 60s players

or if they did they had chimpanzees doing the leg work because there you have a litany of stupid ranges (Wilt/Moses mid, DR J/Barkley perimeter etc), you have half the players who ever played rated as 100 defenders

and you have rebounding results exactly the opposite of your stated intention (i.e.an effort at normalization across eras winds up creating an even bigger advantage for 60s players)

all of which items were called out by the owners within the first day of live release (and still havent been addressed more than 2 months later)

stupid, but also retarded
7/25/2008 12:28 PM
You guys have a whole lot more knowledge of the Sim history and how things ought to be working than I do. With regard to how my team has been / will be effected with this change, it's hard to draw conclusions just yet since it's only been a handful of games so far. But the first game after the "fix" my squad barely beat the worst team in the league although favored by 33, then the next was a loss that ended a 29 game win streak, in which my squad had a Washington Generals-like 37 turnovers. I made an adjustment to switch from an up tempo to a slow down offense in order to limit possessions, which seems to have helped drop turnovers in past few games ... but will also make it a little difficult to accurately assess "before and after" statistical differences. Although one stat change I'm pretty sure of is that the 22 point average margin of victory is history.
7/25/2008 3:34 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By badja on 7/24/2008
Quote: Actually, he didn't lose anything. The new 'release' doesn't affect his team at all.

Then the rest of his league is getting screwed? Did this mistake affect only 2 leagues, or every league?

Either way, the SIM was not tested thoroughly and that's my gripe
If you mean that he's going to pummel everyone in his league, then yes the rest of his league is getting screwed. But that is the way it should be. Everyone in that league were given the same set of rules when they joined.

These "rules" manifest itself as bad data (for instance, those offensive ranges where Barkely is shooting from the perimeter), good data (for instance, points), salary caps and player salaries, as well as software limitations, which includes deliberate limitations such as high turnover rate for centers playing at point and the mistakes such as bugs.

Additional rules can be implemented by the commissioners in theme leagues (such as no clones).

Changing the rules in mid-season, where some benefit while others do not, is non-sense.

7/25/2008 3:38 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By abrondon on 7/25/2008
You guys have a whole lot more knowledge of the Sim history and how things ought to be working than I do. With regard to how my team has been / will be effected with this change, it's hard to draw conclusions just yet since it's only been a handful of games so far. But the first game after the "fix" my squad barely beat the worst team in the league although favored by 33, then the next was a loss that ended a 29 game win streak, in which my squad had a Washington Generals-like 37 turnovers. I made an adjustment to switch from an up tempo to a slow down offense in order to limit possessions, which seems to have helped drop turnovers in past few games ... but will also make it a little difficult to accurately assess "before and after" statistical differences. Although one stat change I'm pretty sure of is that the 22 point average margin of victory is history.



I've also made similar changes in pace. I dropped it down from up-tempo to slow-down. That resulted in my FG% going up to the 48% range, instead in the 42% range.







7/25/2008 3:40 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By ashleyscott on 7/25/2008

Quote: Originally Posted By badja on 7/24/2008

Quote: Actually, he didn't lose anything. The new 'release' doesn't affect his team at all.

Then the rest of his league is getting screwed? Did this mistake affect only 2 leagues, or every league?

Either way, the SIM was not tested thoroughly and that's my gripe.
If you mean that he's going to pummel everyone in his league, then yes the rest of his league is getting screwed. But that is the way it should be. Everyone in that league were given the same set of rules when they joined.

These "rules" manifest itself as bad data (for instance, those offensive ranges where Barkely is shooting from the perimeter), good data (for instance, points), salary caps and player salaries, as well as software limitations, which includes deliberate limitations such as high turnover rate for centers playing at point and the mistakes such as bugs.

Additional rules can be implemented by the commissioners in theme leagues (such as no clones).

Changing the rules in mid-season, where some benefit while others do not, is non-sense.



where does WiS stating clearly that there is a possession*penalty in effect but not instituting it fall within the scope of the 'rules'?

(*edit: typo)
7/25/2008 4:30 PM
There was a position -- should be possession, too penalty already in effect even before the recent changes made a few days ago.

How do I know it was in effect?

I had Wilt Chamberlain, the high FG% version, shooting 39% for the entire season because it was shooting 500+ FGAs more than in real-life. That's how I know.

Was there any changes made between 5/19 and 7/22 that would have removed the penalty? I don't think so because Wilt still shot 39% during that time span.

It is that version of "position penalty" that everyone was using prior to the changes.

7/25/2008 5:38 PM
Obviously I'm biased in this case, but I tend to agree that since everyone at the time this league was being put together was subject to the same rules, it should have been allowed to play out the way it was. That being said, maybe Sim tweaks like this go on all the time and I never really took much notice before now. Still leaves a sour taste though. Ah well, I guess I'll somehow have to find the strength to forge on through the overwhelming pain and strife .
7/25/2008 8:11 PM
WIS did this a number of times before. The worst case was the changes in salaries where in one of my leagues, teams drafted were on different salary scales. The last few teams played by different rules.

Typically, salary changes don't affect leagues already playing but it does affect leagues still filling.

Years ago, when WIS notifies owners of future changes, the some owners would simply wait rather than draft a team that could falter under the changes.

7/26/2008 8:29 AM
Hey guys, just wanted to explain. This situation was a clear case of a bug in the code, not a new feature being added or an existing feature being reworked. The possession penalty has been around for quite a while. In these cases we fix the issue ASAP and it applies to all leagues.

I think the case for abrondon is that we don't do a good enough job of explaining some intricacies of the game in the Draft Center. That's a very valid point and I'd like to add some more drafting tips to explain some of the possession penalties and things like that.
7/26/2008 10:09 AM
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Possession Penalty, Where is it? Topic

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